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446 points Teever | 46 comments | | HN request time: 0.423s | source | bottom
1. carefulfungi ◴[] No.45029744[source]
This is explictly restricting speech (restricting the right to advertise for labor) and would have to meet a high first amendment bar in the US.

Pay transparency law supporters have argued successfully that there is a compelling interest in closing gender and racial wage gaps and that salary range information can be mandated in job listings for that purpose. What's the compelling interest in this case that allows the government to control speech?

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2. em-bee ◴[] No.45029832[source]
advertising for jobs that aren't actually available is fraud or deception?
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3. carefulfungi ◴[] No.45029895[source]
If you advertise a job and fail to find a qualified candidate, and then don't fill that role, is that fraud? If you advertise for talent constantly, interview regularly, and hire rarely (but hire), is that fraud? If you have a single role to fill and advertise it multiple times in multiple states as multiple listings because that's how job posting forums work, is that fraud?
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4. miladyincontrol ◴[] No.45029960[source]
They are available, just not for you, or oft for anyone inside the country. However proving intent when they will find any and all excuses to pass on local talent is a difficult measure to ascertain beyond a reasonable doubt.
5. didibus ◴[] No.45029980{3}[source]
I think it can be argued that some of those are.

Same as how false price advertising, or I don't know, say you kept calling customer support but never had any problems could start to look like abuse.

Or squatting a business parking lot, you can always say, I eventually might need something from the store and intend to buy from it. I think they'd still have you towed and your argument would fail.

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6. TimorousBestie ◴[] No.45030092[source]
> This is explictly restricting speech (restricting the right to advertise for labor) and would have to meet a high first amendment bar in the US.

Fraud or specifically false advertisement is not protected by the First Amendment. 15 USC 52 and ff.

> What's the compelling interest in this case that allows the government to control speech?

Ghost job postings negatively impact interstate commerce.

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7. treyd ◴[] No.45030131[source]
How is this actually restricting speech? It's not restricting advertisements for labor, it's restricting intentional lies made to misdirect. That's called fraud.
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8. em-bee ◴[] No.45030174{3}[source]
if you fail to find a candidate then you will easily be able to demonstrate that the candidate suing you for violating the law was not qualified and therefore has no reason to sue.

if you hire rarely, same thing, if you can demonstrate that it takes a long time to find the right candidate. or, you could be requested to pause posts.

to handle a possible confusion about multiple listings, each job could have some kind of ID, in any case you wouldn't have multiple job posts in the same listing.

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9. terminalshort ◴[] No.45030195[source]
No it isn't. Fraud requires damages. Lying is legal. Maybe you could claim damages in the amount of time it takes to apply for the fake job, but it's not really worth it because it wouldn't be worth more than a few bucks.
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10. gosub100 ◴[] No.45030211[source]
Are corporations given the right to free speech?
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11. didibus ◴[] No.45030319{3}[source]
The harm adds up, time to prepare and apply, possible time and effort and travel expense wasted if an interview was also conducted. You could say financially it's not a lot to one person, but if 100 people got deceived by the same listing? If 20% of all job listing are like that, maybe 2 million people got deceived in aggregate, now the financial harm total adds up to a lot more. And individually, to an unemployed person, even if the total loss is small, the percentage loss is higher as they likely have no revenue.

You could also argue there is loss to other companies listing real postings, as those fake ones add noise and people might miss their posting and not apply, causing them delays in filling their position.

Plus, if the ghost jobs are to appear to be growing to investors, or to satisfy regulators to justify internal positions or foreign hiring, now there is harm to investors or false compliance to regulations.

And I'd also say, the misrepresentation of demand, might lead people to pursue education in some careers and upskill thinking there is a lot of jobs for those skills, that would be a pretty hefty financial loss if they were mislead.

12. pacoWebConsult ◴[] No.45030354[source]
> Ghost job postings negatively impact interstate commerce.

Sure, people wasting time applying to ghost jobs has a societal and economic cost, but what is the impact of government regulation of freely advertising job postings?

How does that stack up against the compliance cost of ensuring all of these regulations are being met so the company aren't fined, and the loss of legitimate postings to all of the places they would normally be posted to due to those regulatory cost?

The government has no business to be restricting speech in this manner.

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13. carefulfungi ◴[] No.45030365{4}[source]
I've conducted probably 700+ interviews as a hiring manager. A lot of candidates I've spoken to assume job listing advertisements are an org chart. In reality, job listings (at scaling companies especially) are a lead generation tool to attract desired talent into a hiring pipeline.

The org chart is dynamic and is affected constantly by changing priority, changing budgets, promotions and departures, and the talent you're attracting. You can't effectively staff at scale under a rule that 1 job listing = 1 box in an org chart. Or at least I've not seen it done - I'd appreciate counter examples :-)

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14. ironman1478 ◴[] No.45030532{5}[source]
Apple does. That's exactly how they hire. I've also seen robotics startups so the same. It's not impossible at places that are growing.
15. jakeydus ◴[] No.45030569{5}[source]
Honestly you could have just saved us all this time by stating you're a hiring manager up front.

I appreciate your optimism regarding the nature of these postings, but I've seen at multiple companies them doing exactly what they describe in the article - fake job postings to improve their appearance to investors, fake job postings to justify H1B positions, etc. Every time I was at a company that got bought by private equity, the former appeared in huge numbers. As soon as we got acquired, in preparation for downsizing, the latter appeared in huge numbers. So you'll forgive me if "managing job hard :(" doesn't land for those of us who are applying for those jobs that don't exist.

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16. alistairSH ◴[] No.45030715{5}[source]
I'd be ok with this IF AND ONLY IF the job listing is explicit that it's a lead generation/ recruitment pipeline builder. But, it should be in big, bold text: THIS IS NOT AN ACTUAL POSITION, WE MAY OR MAY NOT EVER HIRE ANYBODY, BUT SEND US YOUR DETAILS AND MAYBE WE'LL CALL YOU.

Of course, I'm assuming companies with actual positions to fill would gain an advantage here, but the whole recruiting industry is so broken, I'm not sure.

Either way, the true ghost listings - positions that are box-ticker listings for internal candidates or H1Bs are pretty awful.

17. alistairSH ◴[] No.45030740[source]
Yes. Loosely, corporations are just groups of people acting with similar goals and interests, so the free speech right flows to the company.
18. em-bee ◴[] No.45030753{5}[source]
A lot of candidates assume job listing advertisements are an org chart. In reality, job listings (at scaling companies especially) are a lead generation tool to attract desired talent into a hiring pipeline.

what does that mean? if you are hiring you describe the qualifications that you are looking for. if you have a range of qualifications, you say so. if it is not a specific job, then don't describe it as such. i'd happily apply to a listing that doesn't advertise a specific role as long as my qualifications match.

if candidates come to the wrong conclusion, then maybe the job description was not clear about that.

i can see the problem with a broad listing that could be a match for anyone from junior and up, but we are talking about changing laws, so this could be taken into account.

19. didibus ◴[] No.45030765{5}[source]
I don't think those are an issue though, these companies are actually hiring at high rates and filling positions. I don't think it would fall into ghost posting. Also, from my experience, there tends to be hiring pools, because they know it's a matter of days before they need someone else.
20. ◴[] No.45031040{3}[source]
21. gwbas1c ◴[] No.45031041[source]
Oh please! Every time scammers are told to behave, they run around claiming their "free speech" is being impacted.

Free speech is about expressing opinion and fact. It doesn't grant you the right to lie and deceive.

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22. polski-g ◴[] No.45031106[source]
Yes. Shareholders and their agents ("corporations") have rights to free speech.
23. philipallstar ◴[] No.45031187{6}[source]
The problem is H1B. If that goes away, or is massively reduced, then that will help a lot.
24. bethekidyouwant ◴[] No.45031262[source]
Who decides?
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25. Zigurd ◴[] No.45031437[source]
Deceptive commercial speech is illegal in many contexts.
26. maxk42 ◴[] No.45031444[source]
Sorry, but how would you ever prove a job ad is fake?

"Were you going to hire someone for this role?" "Yes." "Case dismissed."

27. sib ◴[] No.45031805{4}[source]
>> if you fail to find a candidate then you will easily be able to demonstrate that the candidate suing you for violating the law was not qualified and therefore has no reason to sue.

Umm, no? There are plenty of times when I've had roles posted that we interviewed candidates who met the written requirements (e.g., degrees, years of experience, etc) but did not pass our interview loops. It's very hard to prove a negative.

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28. bill_joy_fanboy ◴[] No.45031960{3}[source]
Isn't that what court is for?
29. thinkingtoilet ◴[] No.45032007{3}[source]
No. Obviously not. Are you intentionally being difficult? The article clearly addresses this and the main point is that these jobs are being posted with no intention to fill the role.
30. _DeadFred_ ◴[] No.45032025{3}[source]
If I have 1 month of savings after which I lose my house, my car, maybe my marriage, and I invest time into your fake scheme, what is the cost to me in the end? Much more than a few bucks.

If move cross country because the job market in an area looks really good, only there aren't actually any jobs, what is the cost to me in the end?

31. _DeadFred_ ◴[] No.45032085{3}[source]
Does the government regulate car dealer advertisements for vehicles not on the lot and that don't exist?

This might suck for companies but sadly their peers made it necessary. Corporations keep telling us they will do the bare minimum of good behavior required by law and instead focus solely on return. Don't be surprised that we are now adjusting to that now that previous norms have been thrown out.

32. _DeadFred_ ◴[] No.45032088[source]
Can a car dealer advertise a car they don't have for sale?
33. snapetom ◴[] No.45032237[source]
Citizens United specifically affirmed corporations' First Amendment rights.
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34. atcon ◴[] No.45032487[source]
The compelling interest for state and federal governments would be to ensure a fair marketplace by prohibiting false advertising and deceptive practices. California is considering Assembly Bill 1251 (Banning “ghost” job postings) to deter “unfair competition” in the labor marketplace. <https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab...>

Regarding First Amendment conflicts with commercial speech, the Supreme Court described its four-step analysis in Central Hudson Gas & Elec. v. Public Svc. Comm'n, 447 U.S. 557 (1980) (stating “For commercial speech to come within the First Amendment, it at least must concern lawful activity and not be misleading.”) Hence, the FTC Division of Advertising Practices (DAP) <https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-consume...> has survived legal scrutiny of its enforcement authority due to its compelling interest in fair public markets.

As the Congressional Research Service pointed out, FTC enforcement actions regarding ghost jobs would be difficult, since employer intent is not easily discoverable and consumer harm not easily quantifiable. On the other hand, “While employers generally do not have a legal duty to respond to job applicants, differing responses based on protected characteristics could violate Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or other employment laws.” page 2, <https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/IF/PDF/IF1297...>

For instance, if an employer used job postings to hire from certain countries or age groups, this would likely violate Title VII since national origin and age are protected classes under Title VII, eg Mobley v Workday (where plaintiffs argue the Workday job postings platform violated Title VII) <https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/courts/2025/08/21/judge-ord...>

35. em-bee ◴[] No.45032540{5}[source]
if they passed the written requirements you should have interviewed them. if not, why didn't you and why would you then be claiming that you can't find anyone? if you did interview them and they failed, then you have all the proof you need.
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36. gosub100 ◴[] No.45032942{3}[source]
I thought that was affirming money was speech?
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37. tracker1 ◴[] No.45033428{4}[source]
Kind of... restricting money/spending is restricting speech/reach.
38. BeetleB ◴[] No.45033785[source]
> This is explictly restricting speech (restricting the right to advertise for labor)

If they were advertising for labor, this wouldn't be an issue. The whole problem is that they are not trying to fill the position (or even have a position open).

39. nitwit005 ◴[] No.45033786{3}[source]
If you do intend to hire, that's different than the problem being discussed.

I admit some companies fail to fill roles due to incompetence, but sadly the law can't force competence.

40. WalterBright ◴[] No.45034463{4}[source]
> you will easily be able to demonstrate that the candidate suing you for violating the law was not qualified and therefore has no reason to sue.

Value judgments are an impossible thing to adjudicate. Though people try them anyway, with lots of unjust results.

41. Gormo ◴[] No.45038407[source]
No one is "given" a right to free speech -- rather, in the United States, the constitution recognizes a pre-existing right to free speech, and enjoins the government from infringing upon it. This applies regardless of what organizational structures people use to coordinate their affairs.
42. Gormo ◴[] No.45038460{4}[source]
No, that ruling was almost exactly the opposite. The FEC tried to argue, based on the "electioneering communication" provisions of the McCain-Feingold act, that expression of opinions that might benefit a candidate was equivalent to a monetary donation to that candidate, so their authority to regulate campaign donations included the power to suppress the publication of certain political speech.

Basically, they were arguing that "speech is money". The court ruled against that, and reaffirmed that speech in itself is always protected by the first amendment, regardless of who may benefit from it or what resources were allocated to facilitating it.

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43. NoGravitas ◴[] No.45039658[source]
I want to downvote you, but you are technically correct. I think most of us agree that there exists a compelling interest, but that in practice the case would be made that this should be struck down because it restricts speech, and the captured judiciary would certainly uphold that argument.
44. gosub100 ◴[] No.45041169{5}[source]
Thank you for the explanation. I'll admit this was intellectual laziness on my part.
45. sib ◴[] No.45056486{6}[source]
>>>> if you fail to find a candidate then you will easily be able to demonstrate that the candidate suing you for violating the law was not qualified and therefore has no reason to sue.

>>> Umm, no? There are plenty of times when I've had roles posted that we interviewed candidates who met the written requirements (e.g., degrees, years of experience, etc) but did not pass our interview loops. It's very hard to prove a negative.

>> if they passed the written requirements you should have interviewed them.

That is the point of my anecdote; we did interview them. And yet, we did not hire them, for a variety of reasons. For example, they may not have passed the interview. Or a reference check may have raised concerns. Or we may have hired another candidate whom we also interviewed and who did better.

Your implication, that they should have an easy and presumptively correct right to sue (and win) unless we can "demonstrate ... that the candidate was not qualified," is extremely expensive. It can easily cost 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars to defend a lawsuit.

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46. em-bee ◴[] No.45058721{7}[source]
we seem to be talking past each other. i never meant to imply that someone should win a lawsuit if you have documented why you rejected them. they should only win if you passed over their resume without interviewing them despite having a resume that is qualified and you don't have any good reason for passing over that resume AND if the position is still open and you don't have any other candidates that are better qualified that you are still interviewing. all of those conditions need to be met.

i am only talking about the case where a company is collecting resumes but never interviewing anyone. or rejecting everyone they interview but skipping over qualified candidates they could interview but don't without a good reason.

i haven't even thought about the case where candidates pass an interview but the position still does not get filled despite that. that's probably also something to think about, but while you seem to keep talking about candidates you interviewed, until now i have only been talking about candidates you did not interview.

and again, all of this is only relevant if you are not actually filling the position, despite having found qualified candidates.