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597 points classichasclass | 10 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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Etheryte ◴[] No.45010574[source]
One starts to wonder, at what point might it be actually feasible to do it the other way around, by whitelisting IP ranges. I could see this happening as a community effort, similar to adblocker list curation etc.
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bobbiechen ◴[] No.45010611[source]
Unfortunately, well-behaved bots often have more stable IPs, while bad actors are happy to use residential proxies. If you ban a residential proxy IP you're likely to impact real users while the bad actor simply switches. Personally I don't think IP level network information will ever be effective without combining with other factors.

Source: stopping attacks that involve thousands of IPs at my work.

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BLKNSLVR ◴[] No.45011308[source]
Blocking a residential proxy doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

My single-layer thought process:

If they're knowingly running a residential proxy then they'll likely know "the cost of doing business". If they're unknowingly running a residential proxy then blocking them might be a good way for them to find out they're unknowingly running a residential proxy and get their systems deloused.

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1. immibis ◴[] No.45014071[source]
Let's suppose I'm running a residential proxy. Of course my home IP address changes every day, so you'll end up blocking my entire ISP (a major one) or city (a major one) one by one.

And what if I'm behind CGNAT? You will block my entire ISP or city all in one go, and get complaints from a lot of people.

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2. Arnavion ◴[] No.45014457[source]
If enough websites block the entire ISP / city in this way, *and* enough users get annoyed by being blocked and switch ISPs, then the ISPs will be motivated to stay in business and police their customers' traffic harder.

Alas, the "enough users get annoyed by being blocked and switch ISPs" step will never happen. Most users only care about the big web properties, and those have the resources to absorb such crawler traffic so they won't get in on the ISP-blocking scheme.

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3. recursive ◴[] No.45015074[source]
The hapless end user won't blame the ISP first.
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4. Arnavion ◴[] No.45015105{3}[source]
One of them won't, but enough of them getting blocked would. People do absolutely notice ISP-level blocks when they happen. We're currently seeing it play out in the UK.

But my main point was in the second paragraph, that "enough of them would" will never happen anyway when the only ones doing the blocking are small websites.

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5. immibis ◴[] No.45017509{4}[source]
The end user will find out whether their ISP is blocking them or Netflix is blocking them. Usually by asking one of them or by talking to someone who already knows the situation. They will find out Netflix is blocking them, not their ISP.

What, exactly, do you want ISPs to do to police their users from earning $10 of cryptocurrency a month, or even worse, from playing free mobile games? Neither one breaks the law btw. Neither one is even detectable. (Not even by the target website! They're just guessing too)

There are also enough websites that nobody is quitting the internet just because they can't get Netflix. They might subscribe to a different steaming service, or take up torrenting. They'll still keep the internet because it has enough other uses, like Facebook. Switching to a different ISP won't help because it will be every ISP because, as I already said, there's nothing the ISP can do about it. Which, on the other hand, means Netflix would ban every ISP and have zero customers left. Probably not a good business decision.

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6. Arnavion ◴[] No.45018100{5}[source]
>The end user will find out whether their ISP is blocking them or Netflix is blocking them. Usually by asking one of them or by talking to someone who already knows the situation. They will find out Netflix is blocking them, not their ISP.

You seem to think I said users will think the block is initiated by the ISP and not the website. I said no such thing so I'm not sure where you got this idea.

>What, exactly, do you want ISPs to do

Respond to abuse reports.

>Neither one is even detectable. (Not even by the target website! They're just guessing too)

TFA has IP addresses.

>Which, on the other hand, means Netflix would ban every ISP and have zero customers left.

It's almost like I already said, twice even, that the plan won't work because the big web properties won't be in on it.

7. renewiltord ◴[] No.45018689[source]
Indeed. This is why it was important that "net neutrality" not be the law. ISPs need the power to police their user traffic.
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8. Arnavion ◴[] No.45018822{3}[source]
It doesn't have anything to do with net neutrality. It's simply a matter of responding to abuse complaints seriously.
9. xp84 ◴[] No.45019892[source]
> the ISPs will be motivated to stay in business and police their customers' traffic harder.

You can be completely forgiven if you're speaking from a non-US perspective, but this made me laugh pretty hard -- in this country we usually have a maximum of one broadband ISP available from any one address.

A small fraction of a few of the most populous, mostly East-coast, cities, have fiber and a highly asymmetrical DOCSIS cable option. The rest of the country generally has the cable option (if suburban or higher density) and possibly a complete joke of ADSL (like 6-12Mbps down).

There is nearly zero competition, most customers can choose to either keep their current ISP or switch to something with far worse speed/bandwidth caps/latency, such as cellular internet, or satellite.

10. immibis ◴[] No.45027189{3}[source]
Incorrect. They need to be forbidden from policing traffic this way. Companies like netflix will need to either ban every ISP (and therefore go bankrupt) or cope harder.