Most active commenters

    ←back to thread

    243 points greesil | 16 comments | | HN request time: 0.274s | source | bottom
    1. bradleyy ◴[] No.44636650[source]
    In any future fusion power plant, a plasma with a high triple product must be maintained for long periods.

    I love vague terms like "long periods". Long compared to the Planck length? Geological time? Is the advertised 43 seconds almost there or "off by 17 orders of magnitude?"

    replies(5): >>44636712 #>>44636920 #>>44637043 #>>44637170 #>>44637243 #
    2. dmbche ◴[] No.44636712[source]
    I believe it's "for as long as the reactor is to be operating", and they contrast that with the previous longest times being less than 45 seconds.
    replies(1): >>44637497 #
    3. go_elmo ◴[] No.44636920[source]
    Its implict by the context. The co text is SOTA fusion research. One can never fully define everything.
    4. pama ◴[] No.44637043[source]
    I agree vague language in popular press is sometimes annoying.

    “Off by 17 orders of magnitude” would be off by 136 billion years, so not that much for sure. Assuming you want to be able to test the plant and or maintain it once per year, 43 seconds is less than 6 orders of magnitude off. The jump was more than a full order of magnitude compared to past records, so another handful such developments and we are there.

    replies(2): >>44638663 #>>44644754 #
    5. rnhmjoj ◴[] No.44637170[source]
    Long compared to the current generation of experiments. JET pulses lasted a couple of seconds, an actual power plant might be more like a couple of hours or even a steady-state.
    6. Analemma_ ◴[] No.44637497[source]
    I thought the expectation was that actually-operating fusion plants would operate in pulses rather than continuously, but I could be misremembering.
    replies(1): >>44637640 #
    7. smallerize ◴[] No.44637640{3}[source]
    Toroidal reactors have to operate in pulses. Stellarators can be operated in steady-state (although sometimes they are pulsed to achieve higher energy).
    replies(2): >>44638284 #>>44640468 #
    8. riffraff ◴[] No.44638284{4}[source]
    But don't you need to "refuel" now and then?
    replies(2): >>44638515 #>>44640722 #
    9. tetha ◴[] No.44638515{5}[source]
    W7x has a pellet injection system now.

    This is shared in the better article here: https://www.ipp.mpg.de/5532945/w7x

    > During the record-setting experiment, about 90 frozen hydrogen pellets, each about a millimeter in size, were injected over 43 seconds, while powerful microwaves simultaneously heated the plasma. Precise coordination between heating and pellet injection was crucial to achieve the optimal balance between heating power and fuel supply.

    replies(1): >>44659956 #
    10. Retric ◴[] No.44638663[source]
    Even 1 hour of stability with a relatively short restart period (under 5 minutes) would be fine with a battery system assuming the rest of the power plant was cheap enough to build and operate.

    Nuclear already gets taken offline for several weeks for refueling, but redundancy covers such issues.

    replies(1): >>44644762 #
    11. rnhmjoj ◴[] No.44640468{4}[source]
    Tokamaks can also be operated in steady-state, at least theoretically. The reason a tokamak is pulsed is due to the fact the toroidal current is driven inductively, so there is a limit to how long you can keep increasing the current in the central solenoid. However there are other methods, for example, neutral beam injection and electron cyclotron current drive. You can even exploit the bootstrap current (self-generated by collisional processes in the plasma) to obtain a near 100% non-inductive toroidal plasma (this is called "advanced tokamak" regime).

    Anyway, the older generation of devices was pulsed for engineering reasons (like non-superconducting coils getting too hot). The current generation of device is solving most of these and is limited by MHD instabilities alone (neoclassical tearing modes, mostly), if we can get active control mechanism working, then will be finally approach the long-pulse or steady-state regime.

    12. Tuna-Fish ◴[] No.44640722{5}[source]
    Refueling is not why tokamaks are pulsed.

    A smooth toroidal magnetic field cannot confine plasma. The field at the outer side (further away from axis) are spread more widely and weaker than in the inner side. In a very short time, this will cause ions to drift out of confinement at the outer side. The solution is to produce a twisted, helical field, where the field lines go in circles in both directions of the toroid simultaneously, like the stripes of a candy cane in the bend.

    Different reactor designs have different solutions to this. Tokamaks use a solenoid to drive a strong toroidal current in the plasma. This, in turn, causes a poloidal magnetic field, which provides the second half of the field needed for confinement. But this only works when magnetic field of the solenoid coil is varying smoothly over time in a single direction. Eventually, you hit some limit in your ability to do that, at which point you lose your ability to confine the plasma and the pulse ends.

    Stellarators do not have this issue. They get the full field geometry needed from their primary field, by twisting it around the toroid in a very complex path. The downside is that they are much more difficult to design and build.

    13. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.44644754[source]
    Any fusion reactor that produces masses of free neutrons is uneconomic, because the neutrons are ridiculously corrosive to everything they collide with. Neutron activation produces a mess of radioactive isotopes, some of which fission quickly. It doesn't take long - certainly much less than a year - before you're left with components that no longer do their jobs and are also radioactive.

    This is a much less sexy problem than containment, but it's a showstopper for commercialisation. You can just about imagine an epically huge reactor with unfeasibly powerful containment fields that trap fusion in the centre of a large cloud of hydrogen, which captures neutrons to make tritium to power the reaction. But that's completely unbuildable with current tech.

    Aneutronic fusion is possible, but it happens at even more extreme temperatures, which are barely theoretical at the moment.

    At this point we've been chasing fusion for more than 70 years, and commercialisation is as far away as ever.

    You might as well just build yourself a small star.

    Or perhaps even spend all that research money on making better use of the star we already have.

    replies(1): >>44645838 #
    14. XorNot ◴[] No.44644762{3}[source]
    Or just two reactors staggered in operation. Power grids can already coordinate on that sort of timescale.
    15. svantana ◴[] No.44645838{3}[source]
    General Fusion claim to get around these issues by having the fusion take place inside a centrifuge of liquid lithium. I'm not knowledgable enough to determine how plausible their claims are, though.
    16. riffraff ◴[] No.44659956{6}[source]
    Neat, thanks