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Apple vs the Law

(formularsumo.co.uk)
378 points tempodox | 27 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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simonask ◴[] No.44529604[source]
As a European, I have to say I am generally impressed with the EU in these cases. I'm from a country that's rich and capable, but with a GDP a fraction of Apple's market cap. There is no chance that national laws and entities would be sufficient to protect my consumer rights from corporations this size.

The EU is fundamentally a centre-right, liberalist, pro-business coalition, but what that means is that it is pro-competition. What's really impressive is that it seems to mostly refrain from devolving into protectionist policies, giving no preferential treatment to European businesses against international (intercontinental?) competitors, despite strong populist tendencies in certain member states.

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FinnLobsien ◴[] No.44529791[source]
I would argue the opposite: It actually makes European businesses worth off by continuing to make its regulatory environment so complex only massive companies like big tech or Europe's legacy players have the resources to comply.

Add to that feel-good green initiatives like a packaging initiative that might lower packaging waste from European companies, but more likely will just make European goods more expensive and cause Europeans to buy from Temu instead.

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Y-bar ◴[] No.44529944[source]
The EU has basically said that it's better to have a handful medium-sized companies in competition for customers than one or two mega-corps owning and dictating the market. And to resolve that they employ two things, one is the DMA/DSA and similar laws which mostly takes effect when your company reaches a certain large market penetration, the other is standardisations such as the Radio Equipment Directive (think "USB-C law" and similar ones) that make it easier for consumers to avoid vendor lock-in.

> just make European goods more expensive and cause Europeans to buy from Temu instead

Temu is under active investigation for breaching these laws, anyone operating within EU is subject to those laws, not just European companies (e.g. https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-ope...)

replies(1): >>44530165 #
FinnLobsien ◴[] No.44530165[source]
> The EU has basically said that it's better to have a handful medium-sized companies in competition for customers than one or two mega-corps owning and dictating the market. And to resolve that they employ two things, one is the DMA/DSA and similar laws which mostly takes effect when your company reaches a certain large market penetration, the other is standardisations such as the Radio Equipment Directive (think "USB-C law" and similar ones) that make it easier for consumers to avoid vendor lock-in.

Then show me the handful of European, medium-sized companies competing for customers. The problem is that you pass DMA, DSA, GDPR, etc. which Google, Apple etc. can fight for years in court and if they have to pay a few billion, so be it.

Instead what's happening is that European alternatives (the kind that's actually good, not the kind that's European and half as good) don't exist and the incentives to build one shrink because any scaling company is instantly hamstrung.

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1. pjmlp ◴[] No.44530336{3}[source]
SAP, Spotify, Sitecore, Roche, Airbus, CERN (the ecosystem powers its research), CodePlay, SN Systems, BAYER, Roche,....
replies(2): >>44530916 #>>44533494 #
2. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.44530916[source]
Since when is Airbus a small company and not part of the large state supported corp monopoly gang? Same with SAP, Roche and Bayer. These are all masive corporations that swallowed entire sectors. Same with Spotify having used its monopoly status to screw over smaller artists. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read such comments.

Let me ask you guys something else, if EU hates large monopolist companies so much as you claim, then why are all its car companies monopolistic mega conglomerates that rule the world like Volkswagen, Stellantis, Daimler Benz, BMW, and Renault? Where's EU's equivalent of Tesla if they supposedly hate all these big companies?

I'll tell you why: Just like the US, the capital controlled EU also supports its domestic monopolies and only bitches about foreign monopolies in sectors they don't control and threaten their economic hegemony. That's the cold hard truth, everything else is just political hot air and virtue signaling for brownie points, and I'm pissed people are not only buying it but also parroting it when the goal to monopolize business sectors is as strong in EU corporations as it is in US and Chinese ones.

Europe is just more stricter now with controlling large (mostly foreign) corporations since its own economy lost a lot of ground to the US and Chinese ones (it has now half the real GDP it had 2 decades ago), and since it can't create new large companies, all it can do now is protecting what it has left from foreign companies taking over their turf. The upshot being that a lot of those rules are congruent with the consumer protections which also end up globally favoring consumers abroad.

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3. pjmlp ◴[] No.44531024[source]
Easy, on the car companies that already exist with much better build quality.

We don't need cars from fascists.

replies(2): >>44531099 #>>44532210 #
4. jonnybgood ◴[] No.44531099{3}[source]
> We don't need cars from fascists.

To be fair, that’s not what they said. I believe they’re asking where are the car companies of Tesla’s size and market position.

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5. hnlmorg ◴[] No.44531129[source]
How is Tesla an example of your point? It’s the biggest EV manufacturer owned by one of the world’s richest men.

Perhaps the problem here isn’t that smaller brands don’t exist, it’s that if we give examples of smaller brands then you’ll argue

“Never heard of them. Thus proof that the EU is holding them back”

And if we mention household names then you’d argue

“Those aren’t small companies”

You’ve basically crafted an impossible to satisfy condition. A question that would be equally impossible for you to satisfy with US firms as it is for EU firms.

———

By the way, there’s quite a few car manufacturers that are small listed here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufactu...

A few of them are relatively big names despite their small company size, for example Noble Automotive.

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6. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44531467{4}[source]
> Tesla’s size and market position.

Like, Tesla are very small (in terms of cars sold) but very large in terms of valuation. Seems like a once-off, not something that would be replicable (anywhere).

7. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44531485{3}[source]
BYD Q4 sales (only NEV): https://tridenstechnology.com/byd-sales-statistics/ approx 600k.

Tesla Q4 sales: https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-fourth-quarter-2024... approx 500k.

So Tesla are not the biggest anymore (which honestly surprised me).

replies(1): >>44532156 #
8. rebolek ◴[] No.44532156{4}[source]
It doesn't surprise me at all. BYD invests heavily into R&D. I don't know how much Tesla invests into R&D but if their latest product is an ugly Homercar for incels, then they should probably think a bit about their strategy.
replies(1): >>44539272 #
9. FirmwareBurner ◴[] No.44532210{3}[source]
>We don't need cars from fascists.

Really? Because look up on the history of VW, BMW, Porsche, Fiat, etc and their founding families, some of who still own a large part of the shares of those companies today. Most of them worked with fascists no problem, some by force of the era some by opportunity but none of them opposed them.

You see this is the typical European hypocrisy that I dislike. Pointing fingers that Elon is somehow a fascist cause he raised his arm once, but Porsche or BMW who used slave labor from work camps is somehow not fascist now because ... reasons I guess.

Explain me that with logic and reason, and not with the "Elon is a fascist because reddit told me he is".

replies(2): >>44533226 #>>44533647 #
10. pjmlp ◴[] No.44533226{4}[source]
Yes, everyone played a role in WW 2, that is why we try to learn from history, instead of supporting those eager to repeating it.
replies(1): >>44540810 #
11. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44533494[source]
Spotify has never been consistently profitable and had Net income last year of a little over a billion. They are a nothingburger
replies(1): >>44539923 #
12. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44533554{3}[source]
Tesla is not one of the largest EV manufacturers and sales are rapidly declining.
replies(1): >>44535541 #
13. saubeidl ◴[] No.44533647{4}[source]
The fact that Elon openly supports and speaks at events of a German party that has been officially labeled far right extremist by the domestic intelligence agency is a stronger signal than even the Hitlerite hand gestures.
replies(1): >>44540792 #
14. Hikikomori ◴[] No.44535185{4}[source]
Old size or new size?
15. hnlmorg ◴[] No.44535541{4}[source]
Name a bigger EV manufacturer in America.
replies(2): >>44538106 #>>44540805 #
16. FireBeyond ◴[] No.44536704[source]
> Let me ask you guys something else, if EU hates large monopolist companies so much as you claim, then why are all its car companies monopolistic mega conglomerates that rule the world like Volkswagen, Stellantis, Daimler Benz, BMW, and Renault? Where's EU's equivalent of Tesla if they supposedly hate all these big companies?

LOL, what?

Tesla has a bigger market cap than those companies COMBINED. And more. How is it a "medium" player? I don't agree with that market cap, to be clear.

It seems that Tesla is the Schrodinger's automotive manufacturer: snappy young upstart when that's convenient, world's biggest/strongest/brightest when that narrative is convenient.

replies(1): >>44540796 #
17. ClumsyPilot ◴[] No.44537953[source]
> why are all its car companies monopolistic mega conglomerates that rule the world like Volkswagen, Stellantis, Daimler Benz, BMW, and Renault?

You just named 5 companies, that’s competition.

US has 1/2 companies controlling 90% market share in several markets. That’s monopoly.

18. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44538106{5}[source]
It’s not just America. We are talking about the world. Tesla is trying to compete globally and sales are declining globally.
replies(1): >>44540464 #
19. Rover222 ◴[] No.44539272{5}[source]
The incel car as you call it is extremely ambitious from an R&D perspective. 48v architecture, steer by wire, etc.

Anyway, I’m not celibate. It’s just an excellent vehicle, if you don’t care about hivemind strangers glaring at you.

20. pjmlp ◴[] No.44539923[source]
Tell that to musicians, apparently they don't need Spotify after all.

I will just go to the record store get some vinyls.

replies(1): >>44541252 #
21. hnlmorg ◴[] No.44540464{6}[source]
Yeah sales are declining, but they’re still the second biggest EV globally.

Saying “Tesla aren’t one of the biggest EV manufacturer” is clearly rubbish.

22. immibis ◴[] No.44540792{5}[source]
The average person is not following politics that deeply, and doesn't know which German party Elon Musk supports, what that party is, how much he supports it, or what has been officially recognized about that party (they retracted the recognition btw). It's much smaller than the already small percentage of people who see someone do a Nazi salute and recognize the gesture.
23. immibis ◴[] No.44540796{3}[source]
Who cares about market cap? Monopoly is about the share of cars you make - Tesla is near zero.
24. immibis ◴[] No.44540805{5}[source]
Ford
25. immibis ◴[] No.44540810{5}[source]
I don't think there is currently any country that was involved in WW2 where repeating WW2 is not mainstream politics.
26. dzonga ◴[] No.44540948{3}[source]
Tesla has no moat. but people don't wanna look at things objectively.

BYD makes better batteries than Tesla. the EU brands provide a better luxury than Tesla.

the US / Japan brands provide a better car in terms of quality than Tesla.

27. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44541252{3}[source]
I am sure musicians are loving the royalty checks they are getting from Spotify at $.003 for every stream. They were better off before streaming.