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    Apple vs the Law

    (formularsumo.co.uk)
    378 points tempodox | 13 comments | | HN request time: 1.475s | source | bottom
    1. jjcob ◴[] No.44529703[source]
    I think at this point we should change the law so that Gatekeepers aren't just required to enable competition, but are somehow forced to actually support competition.

    I'm not sure how we could enforce that, but maybe the law could stipulate that a certain minimum percentage of users must use 3rd party app stores, or use web apps. They should pay a fine if less than say 5% of apps are distributed outside the app store, or if less than 5% of people use a 3rd party browser engine.

    replies(3): >>44530113 #>>44534646 #>>44538360 #
    2. bzzzt ◴[] No.44530113[source]
    First they have to enable competition, you're saying they have to support it but seemingly you want to enforce it. Where does it stop? Should Apple just pay out a part of their profits to their competitors?

    If a competitor wants market share they have to build a better service. Forcing users to go with a bad deal gets the incentives all wrong and is actually bad for consumer choice.

    replies(3): >>44530329 #>>44530413 #>>44530689 #
    3. ohdeargodno ◴[] No.44530329[source]
    > Forcing users to go with a bad deal gets the incentives all wrong and is actually bad for consumer choice.

    Nice bad faith strawman, where'd you buy it ?

    Apple is trying to have its cake and eat it too, selling off their devices as general computing devices and opening it partly to external developers, taking away a massive portion of profits and threatening them when it's not advantageous to them. The entire point is that you _cannot_ build a better service because Apple is blocking you.

    Sony isn't getting this treatment for the PS5, despite qualifying well for being a gatekeeper, because there's no pretenses of being an open market.

    If Apple wants out of this, then let them close down the App Store.

    4. itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44530413[source]
    I think the EU started with the correct intentions. They saw a need to increase the competition in the digital marketplace and reduce the power iOS-Android duopoly has.

    However, instead of defining the market rules, the process has been more about competitors and companies (who’re not happy with Apple’s success) trying to take a chunk of their business.

    An iPhone is not a general computation device, it’s not an open ecosystem. Neither PlayStation, but there’s enough competition in the gaming console sector so nobody comes up with complains about not being able to install any app they want.

    Edit: spelling and clarity.

    replies(1): >>44533010 #
    5. madeofpalk ◴[] No.44530689[source]
    > If a competitor wants market share they have to build a better service.

    Except when Apple ensures that it always comes out ahead when competing. It's not a level playing field.

    Look at Apple Music vs Spotify - ignoring the self-preferencing iOS does to Appke Music, the App Store ensures that Spotify will always make less money than Apple Music. Spotify either has to hand over 30% to its competitor, raise its prices (and lose customers, while still paying its competitor), or just not offer in-app signups. Do you reckon Apple Music has to give away 30% of it's subscriptions?

    It seems bonkers that the only option to have a competitive music streaming service is to make your own operating system or mobile phone. That's unhealthy.

    replies(1): >>44530968 #
    6. bzzzt ◴[] No.44530968{3}[source]
    Not offering in-app signups doesn't seem to make Spotify less dominant. I'm in the Netherlands, almost everybody I know has a Spotify subscription, I know just one guy using Apple music.

    The 30% fee also drops to 15% after one year, and there are companies that negotiated lower fees. Also, 'doing it yourself' won't be free, you still need some party to do payment processing, customer service and returns which also can come close to that 15%.

    The argument you need to make your own phone seems a bit far-fetched. There are multiple music apps making money on iOS.

    replies(1): >>44531905 #
    7. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44531905{4}[source]
    The problem here is that Apple have a competing service that doesn't have to pay the money. That's the issue, and it needs to be resolved for Apple to be compliant with EU law.

    Or they can leave, if they think that makes more sense for their business.

    replies(1): >>44537510 #
    8. lxgr ◴[] No.44533010{3}[source]
    > An iPhone is not a general computation device, it’s not an open ecosystem.

    And yet it's many people's primary computing device. That's exactly the problem.

    As a historical example, consider telecommunications. Phone networks were "natural monopolies" for many decades, and people must have found it hard to imagine any other way back then. Without regulatory intervention enforcing competition, we'd probably still be paying double-digit cent amounts for long-distance calls.

    replies(2): >>44538580 #>>44538651 #
    9. viktorcode ◴[] No.44534646[source]
    I'm not sure if you are serious or not with that proposition that would treat gatekeepers more strict than monopolies.

    Regardless, I wanted to point out the obvious: each new broad regulation increases the cost of operating in the market where said regulation applies. The gatekeepers of today might not leave, but every new potential newcomer will calculate is it even worth it to operate in a market like that? Maybe it pays off to invest hundred of millions into lawyers and lobbying instead of technologies? Or maybe we'll skip EU market altogether (for reference, according to a courtroom statement Apple gets 7% of their revenue from Europe)

    10. burnerthrow008 ◴[] No.44537510{5}[source]
    > The problem here is that Apple have a competing service that doesn't have to pay the money.

    On the contrary, Apple does pay the money... to the artists. Which is something that Spotify doesn't do as much.

    https://virpp.com/hello/music-streaming-payouts-comparison-a...

    Strangely, despite this rather obvious market power (monopsony) that Spotify has in negotiating below-market rates with their suppliers, the EC has not seen fit to label them as a "gatekeeper".

    I'm sure it has nothing whatever to do with having their headquarters in Sweden.

    11. AJ007 ◴[] No.44538360[source]
    This entire thing is a convoluted mess that exists just to employ EU bureaucrats.

    The solution is pretty simple: Apple is no longer allowed to run an "App Store" or distribute a pre-installed web browser. This part can be split apart as a separate company if they prefer that to shutting it down. When you look at Apple's taxable income, most of it goes to Ireland. It's very bizarre to call a company that makes everything in China and holds all of its IP in the EU a US company. It isn't.

    Apple does what the Chinese government tells it to (see Apple in China by Patrick McGee.) If they pulled the EU stuff over there, Apple would cease to have new hardware to sell.

    12. itopaloglu83 ◴[] No.44538580{4}[source]
    We're not seeing the forest for the trees here. There are a lot of smartphone manufacturers they could've bought from, they didn't have to buy from Apple, that's not a monopoly at that point in time. They knew the limitations when they bought the device and also the entire ecosystem was created with this in mind, so asking Apple to change over a decades of work in 3 months is not fair either.

    Apple entered the smartphone market as an almost bankrupt company and replaced the giants of its day like Nokia and Blackberry. And some other company will replace them someday. The DMA discussions started really good, I had really high hopes of it, but it got almost hijacked with various companies to publicly negotiate contracts with Apple and not for the public good as a market regulation.

    13. mrangle ◴[] No.44538651{4}[source]
    Your analogy isn't analogous. Apple is not a network, let alone a public one. There are scads of hardware options other than Apple.