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572 points gausswho | 87 comments | | HN request time: 0.682s | source | bottom
1. pjmlp ◴[] No.44507998[source]
The consumer protection laws are so bad the other side of Atlantic.

Most European countries, have their own version of consumer protection agencies, usually any kind of complaint gets sorted out, even if takes a couple months.

If they fail for whatever reason, there is still the top European one.

Most of the time I read about FTC, it appears to side with the wrong guys.

replies(8): >>44508075 #>>44508495 #>>44508884 #>>44508987 #>>44509501 #>>44510263 #>>44512025 #>>44512341 #
2. b00ty4breakfast ◴[] No.44508075[source]
neoliberal deregulation and regulatory capture, not necessarily in that order, has basically killed federal consumer protection in the US.
replies(3): >>44508254 #>>44508775 #>>44509302 #
3. scrubs ◴[] No.44508254[source]
And it can get worse. Over shooting right (left) invariably leads to overshoot left (right) which we absolutely do not need either.

The American sense (when we get off our butts and do it) is common sense, slowly changing law that always apportions control in equal parts to accountability.

It's the last part that is more galling (because increasingly we've failed) and ultimately will be the more decisive in any future inflection point.

replies(5): >>44508576 #>>44508903 #>>44509220 #>>44509787 #>>44511672 #
4. delfinom ◴[] No.44508495[source]
Not the FTC's fault.

The problem is US congress has not functioned for 2 decades. They no longer pass actual laws. This means the FTC is stuck reinterpreting their existing powers to try and squeeze out regulation that they can but that's it.

replies(1): >>44508861 #
5. idiotsecant ◴[] No.44508576{3}[source]
I think the century of American dominance is probably over. Maybe we can fight our way back to having a functional government, maybe not. I think either way our position in the world order is already diminished and will steadily diminish further. I can see a future where America is a strange backwater, reliant on resource extraction and rules over by a grubby and constantly shifting mafia state.
replies(2): >>44508667 #>>44508737 #
6. DaSHacka ◴[] No.44508667{4}[source]
And who would supersede the states by picking up the mantle?
replies(2): >>44508902 #>>44509803 #
7. ptero ◴[] No.44508737{4}[source]
As an American, I would welcome the world without American domination. Or without any single country domination for that matter. Competition of systems is good for the world.

It doesn't need to turn the US into some grubby mafia state. It could, but I think it is unlikely. But the road for both the US and the world IMO goes down before it goes up as many systems and alliances around the world that depend on US domination shift or crumble. My 2c.

replies(2): >>44508872 #>>44509481 #
8. fuzzy_biscuit ◴[] No.44508775[source]
I don't see the neoliberal deregulation you're talking about, so I'll bite.

Regulatory capture I have seen too often e.g. net neutrality getting killed by a Verizon cronie masquerading as a public servant in the FCC. However, from my perspective, it's been mostly conservative powers undoing consumer protections. Unless you mean liberalism in the more European sense, in which case I agree.

replies(2): >>44509498 #>>44510048 #
9. sneak ◴[] No.44508861[source]
If the FTC can’t do what the FTC is supposed to do, then that is the FTC’s fault for continuing to exist. It’s unfit for purpose and should be shut down.
replies(3): >>44508966 #>>44509358 #>>44509641 #
10. ordinaryradical ◴[] No.44508872{5}[source]
If it’s not America it will be China and I don’t think you want to live in that world.
replies(4): >>44508928 #>>44509132 #>>44509780 #>>44510410 #
11. mrtksn ◴[] No.44508884[source]
True but generally speaking American companies usually have much better customer service and better refund policies than European ones. The issues usually stem when a company corners the market or has no viable alternatives.

So maybe the American way of doing things can also work if a healthy competitive environment is preserved.

The problem lately is that American companies have become monopolies and the formula firms extracting profits or stock hikes for the shareholders dictate that they screw the user up until barely legal territory.

So maybe America can roll without consumer protection laws and agencies if they can fix the business environment.

They just need to find a way out of enshittification, a process US companies perfected.

replies(3): >>44509021 #>>44509221 #>>44512583 #
12. sneak ◴[] No.44508902{5}[source]
The US wasn’t the dominant superpower due to cooperation or agreement or leadership, it was the result of pure technological force.

Oppenheimer, Teller, and countless nameless others at NASA and Lockheed and Boeing and DARPA.

The US built the best weapons, spy planes, launch vehicles, satellites, and communications systems, and was willing to take a no-holds-barred approach to geopolitical strategy. This led to a circumstance which it seems was unparalleled in history thus far.

Who else is able to commit such technological progress to being able to command the world order by edict?

China, perhaps, but I don’t see the next TSMC or SpaceX or OpenAI or Google starting there. Technology is the name of the game. (My own personal take is that mass scale reusable rockets is the key strategic piece to geopolitical dominance over the next 50-100 years, with perhaps the ability to effectively integrate AI as an alternate or close second.)

It may be that we never see a monolithic superpower of the same kind again for generations. The post ww2 world order was really very very kind to the USA.

replies(2): >>44508980 #>>44509427 #
13. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44508903{3}[source]
When has the US actually overshot left though? There was a short period of social justice awareness, but that didn't translate to actual leftwing economic legislation. Even protests and movements with left wing goals were co-opted by the nominally center-right establishment and neutered.

This both-sides stuff gets me, man. Our history is by and large very right wing and every time there's a flutter of left leaning ideas, people chalk it up to some far-left political success and therefore the far right backlash is deserved, as if things ever actually went left in the first place.

replies(1): >>44508942 #
14. DaSHacka ◴[] No.44508928{6}[source]
With their population pyramid I doubt it'd stay that way for long, though.
15. xphilter ◴[] No.44508942{4}[source]
They’re talking about those times we let women vote, implemented social security and got rid of Jim Crow. Really overshot lol.
replies(1): >>44519852 #
16. xphilter ◴[] No.44508966{3}[source]
The ftc isn’t supposed to create laws though. I tend to overshoot on the consumer’s side, but the ftc is overstepping with actions like this. There should be a law passed on this point and then ftc can enforce. Or ftc can sue based on existing law and let courts buy their interpretation.
replies(2): >>44509418 #>>44509512 #
17. DaSHacka ◴[] No.44508980{6}[source]
> It may be that we never see a monolithic superpower of the same kind again for generations. The post ww2 world order was really very very kind to the USA.

And why do you think it couldn't remain that way? Considering SpaceX, OpenAI, and Google were made far, far closer to today than to WWII, why would the assumption be that the output suddenly stops?

replies(2): >>44509236 #>>44515199 #
18. aqme28 ◴[] No.44508987[source]
Absolutely. I don't know if it's the FTC or FCC, but the moment I swap back to my American SIM card on trips to the US, I start getting spam texts that I cannot get rid of. Meanwhile I get absolutely zero of these with my European number.
replies(1): >>44509784 #
19. dinfinity ◴[] No.44509132{6}[source]
Depends on how far down the US is going to slide. It's sadly well underway to become much, much worse than China is (or will become).
replies(1): >>44509730 #
20. Arubis ◴[] No.44509220{3}[source]
When we “overshot left” it was by electing a centrist cishet man who identified as Christian and had different colored skin from the prior presidents.

Overshooting right has us building concentration camps.

replies(2): >>44509361 #>>44510672 #
21. mokash ◴[] No.44509221[source]
>True but generally speaking American companies usually have much better customer service and better refund policies than European ones. The issues usually stem when a company corners the market or has no viable alternatives.

this does not track with my experience

replies(1): >>44509287 #
22. adgjlsfhk1 ◴[] No.44509236{7}[source]
well in the past year, we have stopped funding science in the US, arrested and deported thousands of foreign students here legally, removing the pipeline for the smartest people in the world to move to the US and start world changing companies, and started a trade war with the entire world, making American businesses much less competitive at buying/selling goods internationally.

to consider your examples specifically, Musk and Brin were both immigrants to the US, and musk specifically did exactly the type of visa shenanigans that now is landing people in El Salvador

23. mrtksn ◴[] No.44509287{3}[source]
Any examples of American company having worse customer experience than European ones?

I will give you 2 for the opposite: Amazon and Apple do no question asked refunds all the time. Much higher bar than European regulators require.

replies(7): >>44509461 #>>44509866 #>>44510565 #>>44510590 #>>44510654 #>>44510704 #>>44511267 #
24. claytongulick ◴[] No.44509302[source]
Did you read TFA? This had nothing to do with neoliberalism or whatever.

Everyone agreed with the spirit of the rule, even the two republican appointees who voted against it.

They voted against it because the FTC cheated and broke their own rule making process, they believed it would be struck down by the courts because of this.

They were right. The courts sympathized with the rule, but held that the FTC cheated it's process, and that if left unchecked it could create a tyrannical FTC issuing rules at their whim, ignoring the true economic impact of their rule.

All this court ruling said is that the FTC needs to follow the law and their own defined process for rule making.

They are free to implement this rule, they just need to do it the right way.

While we may not be happy with the short term effect, this was a good ruling. The FTC will go back and do this properly, and hopefully next time will follow the law when making rules.

25. sorcerer-mar ◴[] No.44509358{3}[source]
Even if we were to accept your premise (if broken, throw out), it's still Congress that decides whether the FTC exists or not.
26. malfist ◴[] No.44509361{4}[source]
We overshot so far to the left on the ACA that it was a Republican proposal a decade prior. We overshot on the right and just stripped health care away from 12 million people who can't afford it to pay for tax cuts for the rich
replies(1): >>44510325 #
27. ◴[] No.44509418{4}[source]
28. bluGill ◴[] No.44509427{6}[source]
It was also the result of Europe (now the EU) choosing not to oppose the US (at least mostly - they did in small areas). The EU has more people and combined could - if they wanted - be more powerful than the US. However they have never seen any point - they mostly (not entirely) agree with the US and so it would be a waste of their limited time to do that instead of what they were doing instead.
replies(1): >>44509806 #
29. noitpmeder ◴[] No.44509461{4}[source]
To be honest I don't think they do "no question asked refunds" for the consumer's benefit -- probably more so that they don't have to devote customer support resources to handling all the return requests they get.

I'm sure you'd soon find it's not quite a guaranteed "no questions asked" process if you repeatedly return large expensive items.

replies(2): >>44509642 #>>44510279 #
30. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44509481{5}[source]
I would too. If we agree that monopolies are bad for private industry, why isn’t it just as bad as having one world power. I think Trump and MAGA are uninformed idiots. But they have caused the EU to start building up their own military industry, countries to focus more on their own research and decouple themselves from the US. I can’t see how that’s a bad thing.

The US has given me all sorts of opportunities I wouldn’t have anywhere else in the world as a native born citizens. I plan to extract as much as I can from it and keep my eyes open to retiring somewhere else.

I continuously vote and advocate for policies like universal healthcare, pre-K education, etc. But what are you going to do when voters vote for politicians thst ars against their own interests - getting rid of FEMA when the states that need it the most are Republican, Medicaid, etc.

This isn’t a pie in the sky shrill “I’m leaving the US tomorrow”. But my wife and I already did the digital nomad thing domestically for a year starting in late 2022 and going forward starting next year, we are going to be spending more time out of the country in US time zones while I work remotely starting with Costa Rica.

31. nyeah ◴[] No.44509498{3}[source]
"Neoliberal" means free markets. Most US conservatives insisted on free markets from 1980 until 2016. They claimed it would benefit the overall US economy (and maybe it has). They claimed those benefits would be shared by all Americans (which listen to them now).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

32. sabellito ◴[] No.44509501[source]
Consumer protection laws are mostly fine in Brazil and Uruguay, and I'd bet also on more countries on the other side of the Atlantic.
33. singleshot_ ◴[] No.44509512{4}[source]
> There should be a law passed on this point

Right; there was. We’d refer to that as the “enabling act” by which Congress delegates regulatory lawmaking authority to the FTC.

> The FTC isn’t supposed to create laws

You have deeply misunderstood US federal regulatory law.

> Or FTC can sue based on existing law

Yes; that’s the idea. Regulations are law.

34. evilduck ◴[] No.44509641{3}[source]
The FTC have no say in choosing to exist or not exist, or what laws are passed that they are supposed to enforce. In some cases, an agency intentionally choosing to not carry out their duties would even be breaking the law and subject to penalty or punishment. How the FTC goes about interpreting their duties and then the court system correcting their behavior when they disagree or misbehave is the system working as intended. If they don't have laws to interpret for an issue though, that's a legislative problem.

The real question is why isn't congress doing their job? They control both the existence and funding of the FTC and additionally the laws the FTC are tasked with interpreting and enforcing. If congress is unfit for purpose they should be replaced.

replies(1): >>44511889 #
35. Calvin02 ◴[] No.44509642{5}[source]
Have you ever tried to return something bought at a clothing store? I made that mistake once in France.

You’re creating an absurd standard “repeatedly return large expensive items” but even every day things are way easier in the US.

replies(2): >>44509777 #>>44509841 #
36. scrubs ◴[] No.44509730{7}[source]
It's not clear to me that China is batting that well. I do not wish bad upon the Chinese citizenry, and China has done well in its own day since the 1960s.

But don't forget at the same time where China was during the end of the British power, nor Chinese revolutions, nor the state control over the Chinese populace.

Although the US vastly overweights what we think non-US-democracies would do (think Middle East and our meddling there) given the chance for US like freedom, I do not think we're seeing China in the natural so to speak. HK, for example, was not pleased with the "two systems one country" rule the CPP landed on.

Add in the fact that trade can no longer be assumed to be Chinese central, and China is slowly getting dragged into wars through Russia, and China still hasn't tried its mettle with Taiwan. A post invasion China will hit different. It's got internal issues of employment, real estate, have v. have nots ... it's got its hand full.

My guess is that China, like the US is seeing now on stretches, will be the master of its own demise. In the US a major contributing factor to Trump is the fact the US Congress has become an institutional zero especially since Gingrich. That power vacuum has been filled by the Executive branch under Trump. There's more to it of course, but this two-part crisis is an important matter to keep in mind.

China takes its state craft more seriously in some sense, but that seriousness may get it into trouble. And in fact, several articles in the Economist have argued that if China wants to keep 5%+ YOY GDP growth, the CCP will have to take a back seat which is the one thing it will not do. CCP political power is foremost; good economy is damn nice to have to when you can get it -- and the CCP will go after it hard -- but there are limits ...

replies(1): >>44510478 #
37. mrtksn ◴[] No.44509777{6}[source]
Exactly. Europe’s regulations are about the absolute bottom, not intended to be taken as the average experience.

On average US companies are much better with customer experience. Of course until they corner you, then they may choose not to and then you have it worse than Europeans.

38. rfrey ◴[] No.44509780{6}[source]
It doesn't have to be China or any other country. It can be corporations who move to capture the governments in other countries the way they've done in the US.
replies(1): >>44516977 #
39. rafram ◴[] No.44509784[source]
People don't really use SMS in Europe, do they? WhatsApp spam is very pervasive, though.
replies(4): >>44510232 #>>44510513 #>>44512993 #>>44513279 #
40. thrance ◴[] No.44509787{3}[source]
Surely you're joking, right? The current administration building concentration camps and cutting medicare for 12 millions people is just balancing... what? Obamacare? Don't be ridiculous.
41. rfrey ◴[] No.44509803{5}[source]
Corporations. European politics can be captured by large corporations the same way the US has been. It was unthinkable in the US, 50 years ago, that corporations would call the shots politically. It can happen elsewhere as well.
42. bitcurious ◴[] No.44509806{7}[source]
> It was also the result of Europe (now the EU) choosing not to oppose the US (at least mostly - they did in small areas). The EU has more people and combined could - if they wanted - be more powerful than the US.

Europe was destroyed by war, and then occupied by the US and USSR. The US liberated Western Europe and backstopped their independence. The Europeans didn’t choose to be on the American side, they were forced to by circumstance of their own making.

replies(2): >>44511584 #>>44513135 #
43. vladms ◴[] No.44509841{6}[source]
I think it's more about the type of store. I was with acquaintances returning clothes at high end stores (meaning: expensive) and service was great. I would not try that at a low end store (meaning: cheap).

From my point of view processing a return costs the store money. If they don't make a high margin they will (try to) discourage it. If in US everywhere they are fine with it for me it means they make higher margins everywhere.

44. makeitdouble ◴[] No.44509866{4}[source]
Isn't it best if you don't need refunds all the time ?

Ordering on French consumer shops I got exactly what I asked for, at a reasonable price in a reasonable time.

Product descriptions are actually helpful and there is little risk to get some fake product instead.

Amazon's customer support was incredibly helpful, but that's not what I want to pay for.

FWIW, I moved to AliExpress for the stuff I'm ok to gamble with.

45. HybridCurve ◴[] No.44510048{3}[source]
The Asian Financial Crisis in 1997: deregulated capital flows allowed speculators to rapidly pull money out of countries like Thailand, causing their currencies to collapse. The IMF stepped in, but their 'rescue' packages demanded strict conditions- forced privatization, and further deregulation, which often made things worse. And let's not forget Black Wednesday, when speculators broke the Bank of England. This was called "a textbook case of a speculative attack enabled by capital mobility" which is a core neoliberal policy. Just like all politics: never trust the meaning or identity of something derived from it's headline, title, name, or label- those are always the first lies we are told.
46. xcf_seetan ◴[] No.44510232{3}[source]
Actually I am european and use sms a lot. Dont even have WhatsApp installed... :)
47. dudeinjapan ◴[] No.44510263[source]
A Civil law (Roman law) system might have upheld the FTC's click-to-cancel rule in spite of missteps because it serves the public good. But in common law, process is king--as is protecting individual rights (including the rights of shady marketers.)
replies(1): >>44512027 #
48. potato3732842 ◴[] No.44510279{5}[source]
>probably more so that they don't have to devote customer support resources to handling all the return

Sounds like a win-win then.

This isn't zero sum. Just because it's better for the company doesn't mean it's worse for the consumer.

replies(1): >>44512584 #
49. ◴[] No.44510325{5}[source]
50. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44510410{6}[source]
Why does it have to be China and why does it have to be any one country? Why can’t it be China, EU, and the US all having about the same influence?

But besides, with the rightward, populist/religious nut tilt of the US and corporations being able to bribe the President to get what they want without repercussions (Disney, Paramount, Meta, X, etc), I don’t see how the US is much better. All of the branches of government are giving power to the President that should be theirs.

replies(1): >>44510629 #
51. rapind ◴[] No.44510478{8}[source]
> US Congress has become an institutional zero especially since Gingrich.

This and Citizens United.

52. xxs ◴[] No.44510513{3}[source]
>People don't really use SMS in Europe, do they

Europe is very far from being a single entity. Yet, SMS/RCS is popular enough, and in many countries WhatsApp is non-existent.

53. oritsnile ◴[] No.44510565{4}[source]
The same is true for Europe. I've never had an issue returning items on Amazon, whether they're for personal or business use (where you don't have the right to return items). The same goes for local and European chains.
54. wing-_-nuts ◴[] No.44510590{4}[source]
>Any examples of American company having worse customer experience than European ones?

Xfinity comes to mind. The last time I bought a new modem, I had to basically yell 'cancel my account' over and over again until I finally got to speak to a living, breathing human, who could provision the modem for me.

55. ordinaryradical ◴[] No.44510629{7}[source]
Because there will always be someone with an advantage over the others.

Equilibriums in geopolitics are inherently unstable, states naturally compete for their own self-interest. No state will be willingly co-equal with another unless some actor with greater power forces it into that position.

To your last point, given the state of the US, it would probably be better for the world if the EU were on top at the moment. But they will not be.

replies(1): >>44511028 #
56. glenstein ◴[] No.44510654{4}[source]
>Any examples of American company having worse customer experience than European ones?

I would say things like cable and internet companies, as well as airlines. They are similarly frustrating in Europe but not to the extent that they are in the US and the difference comes down to better regulation.

For that matter I would say the tech regulation environment probably benefits European consumers with stronger data privacy rights, and a 14-day right to withdraw from digital contracts.

57. sensanaty ◴[] No.44510704{4}[source]
In the Netherlands literally every single store has no questions asked refunds for up to a month. Not that I have to do it often, but for example Coolblue and Bol both offer free returns within a month. Pretty much any webstore I have literally ever used has the same refund policies. Not to mention that the topic of this thread is already in-place EU wide, so there's an obvious win there too.
58. scarface_74 ◴[] No.44511028{8}[source]
While I’ve only personally spent a day in an EU country so far - a day trip from London to Paris last month (more coming over the years) - I would much rather see European values exported to the world than US values - lack of universal healthcare, gun violence, corporate takeover of government, anti-vax, anti-science nut cases, etc.
59. lossolo ◴[] No.44511267{4}[source]
> Amazon and Apple do no question asked refunds all the time

I'm not sure where you're getting your information about the EU from, but I can return any item I order online within 14 days, and then I have another 14 days to send it back, no questions asked, no need to give any reason. Some companies even offer 30 to 90 days, but the 14 + 14 days is the legal minimum.

60. bluGill ◴[] No.44511584{8}[source]
In the 1950s that was true. By 1960 it was already changing. When the Soviet Union collapsed in the 1990s Europe was plenty rebuilt enough that they could have redirected their efforts to opposing the US, but they mostly choose not to. Sure the US had a head start, but they have plenty of power. China is moving in the direction of opposing the US in the world, and seeing results.
61. ◴[] No.44511672{3}[source]
62. singleshot_ ◴[] No.44511889{4}[source]
While it’s correct to assert the FTC can’t choose to ignore its enabling act, it’s false to say: 1) the FTC has no say in the laws they are supposed to enforce 2) Congress controls the laws the FTC is tasked with enforcing.

As to 1, the FTC writes the laws it enforces. These laws are called regulations. As to 2, of course Congress could write laws that have to be enforced, but when it comes to regulatory agencies, Congress does quite the opposite. Instead of writing the laws concerning trade, Congress wrote an enabling act delegating this authority to the agency.

Calling for the replacement of a branch of government without understanding any of this would be avoidable with a better educational system.

replies(1): >>44512918 #
63. Tainnor ◴[] No.44512025[source]
It's definitely better in Europe, but certain courts and DPAs (especially the Irish one) are unfortunately known to be incredibly business friendly.
replies(1): >>44519360 #
64. anticensor ◴[] No.44512027[source]
In certain civil law systems such as Turkey, the process is still king, in fact more important than in the US because of the preponderance of positive law in civil law.
65. mindwork ◴[] No.44512341[source]
At the same time European laws got whole internet littered with "Accept cookies" banners
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66. okanat ◴[] No.44512481[source]
This is a persistent stupid take but many HN readers are also on the wrong side of the consumer protection. Those startups don't make money out of thin air eh?

Once again. The full consumer protection would be banning behavior-based advertisement completely, which I would welcome. GDPR is striking a balance. It forces the companies to ask if they are going to collect data and use it in any other purpose from delivering the information / service.

Almost all of the web is feeding data into Google's ad and statistics services which are used to profile people and completely out of scope. That's the minimum. Worser services feed your data into every single PII broker. If you don't collect such data, no banners are necessary. If you need an address and an email to just ship a product, you need 0 cookie banners. The websites can also do geo-fencing so you don't see any banners. They don't want to spend any money to engineers though.

But no, it is EU's fault to create a balanced law. Companies should be violating you and your pricacy left and right. That's their right, isn't it.

replies(1): >>44513044 #
67. noitpmeder ◴[] No.44512584{6}[source]
Sure, but just because it's also pleasant for the consumer as a byproduct doesn't mean you can attribute their actions to that cause, e.g. this doesn't make them altruistic.
68. okanat ◴[] No.44512583[source]
In Germany companies have to have 14 days, no questions asked return for products and services ordered online. If they don't accept it, you can report to a consumer protection agency and sue the company.
replies(1): >>44513689 #
69. nobody9999 ◴[] No.44512918{5}[source]
>Calling for the replacement of a branch of government without understanding any of this would be avoidable with a better educational system.

I could be wrong, but IIUC, what GP meant by "If congress is unfit for purpose they should be replaced."

Is that we should vote the current congress-critters out of office and replace them with different ones -- who might actually do their job.

replies(1): >>44523591 #
70. mrweasel ◴[] No.44512993{3}[source]
Everyone has SMS, they may also have WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or whatever is popular in any given market, but everyone has SMS.
71. mrweasel ◴[] No.44513025[source]
The alternative would have been banning tracking and I don't think that would have happend. At least now you're being informed and have at least the perception of an option to opt-out.

Had you truly preferred not being informed, not being allowed to opt-out?

replies(1): >>44514296 #
72. crims0n ◴[] No.44513044{3}[source]
Plenty of well-meaning laws have unintended consequences. Intent does not absolve being the cause of the effect.
replies(2): >>44513378 #>>44513669 #
73. rdm_blackhole ◴[] No.44513135{8}[source]
> The Europeans didn’t choose to be on the American side, they were forced to by circumstance of their own making.

Europeans choose to follow the US. Even recently Sweden joined NATO. If they wanted to develop their own inter-European military alliance, they could have done so but instead joined and alliance where the US calls the shots.

Also since the fall of the Soviet union, the European countries decided to basically gut their military budgets and redirect the money to other things, as seen by the fact that until very recently only a small fraction of the NATO countries actually met their 2% military budget targets.

De Gaulle after the war did not want to join NATO because he understood what that meant, alas his successors all be gave up on the concept of military independence.

74. Ekaros ◴[] No.44513279{3}[source]
I don't think I get any corporate communication from WhatsApp it is all SMS. For chatting WhatsApp is popular, but companies just send SMS.
75. t-writescode ◴[] No.44513374[source]
The standard "Accept Cookies" banner is, give or take, malicious compliance to the EU's cookie laws. For actually required things, it doesn't *need* to be a banner. Companies tend to use a standardized, third-party-powered "follow the EU law" tool that they get the ugly cookie banner. And even that banner's malicious compliance is under attack now because it takes too many steps to opt out.

For things like sign-in, you barely have to mention the use of cookies on your website, because it's necessary. For things like items in an anonymous shopping cart, a simple "adding this item to the cart when you're not logged in will cause the item to be saved in a cookie so we can remember it later" would suffice.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding.

replies(1): >>44517683 #
76. t-writescode ◴[] No.44513378{4}[source]
Sure, but the cookie law is a bad example of it.
77. vkou ◴[] No.44513669{4}[source]
This consequence is 100% intended to fuck with the UX of your website, if your business model is tracking users.

And it accomplishes that goal. A lot of people on this forum are quite unhappy about it, but that's not because it's an unforeseen consequence.

78. skeletal88 ◴[] No.44513689{3}[source]
This is everywhere in Europe

So it is sometimes better to buy stuff online, because the reasoning is that you haven't seen or tried them, but when you buy it in a physical shop, then you were aware what you bough and can't claim that you couldn't check the colour of a thing or how it fit you or whatever else reason you can think of.

79. devjab ◴[] No.44513876[source]
The cookie banner pop-ups are not compliance with the EU legislation, in fact, many of them are in direct violation of EU laws. If you were to give sites the benefit of doubt, they are doing it because they are copy pasting, but the reality is, that the law is that they can not track you without your concent and that they are not allowed to bother you. The fact that they do is likely malicious compliance to get you to blame the EU rather than their shitty tracking practices.

Any site that doesn't have a single button click to ignore all cookies, breaks EU law. But to truly follow the law, you would have to go into a site setting on your own, and enable tracking. Which nobody would do.

80. mindwork ◴[] No.44514296{3}[source]
thats not the point I was answering.

The point is that it's 2 sides of the coin under regulation vs over regulation. And no system is ideal on both sides of Atlantic

81. sneak ◴[] No.44515199{7}[source]
The US used to be run by people with the ability to think strategically, or by people who listened to educated people who could think strategically. The current US leadership either allows or endorses the capricious whims of an TV-educated idiot to consistently undermine national security and the most fundamental national interests. The complete and total mismanagement of the covid pandemic stands as a perfect example of the scale of the positively massive amount of preventable destruction being wrought presently. That’s just one out of many.

Hard to build high level stuff while the cities are flooding or burning, measles are spreading, the food is becoming toxic, the water is becoming undrinkable, out of control rogue agencies are kidnapping people indiscriminately off the streets, the literacy levels are falling precipitously, and a greater and greater percentage of the population struggles to buy food, much less healthcare or secondary education (or a useful primary education). You simply won’t have the talent pools required to do hard things at scale after a while. This is to say nothing of the complete unpredictability of the economics of supply chains, as incoherent economic policies are arbitrarily whipsawing tariffs around on a monthly basis. It becomes impossible to plan a year in advance.

You need some basic levels of functioning society and infrastructure and economy to build advanced institutions and structures and companies and technology. The US has been attacking its own society’s foundations for decades, and has recently accelerated the pace substantially.

I personally anticipate civil breakdown within a generation, certainly not continued technological innovation.

82. idiotsecant ◴[] No.44516977{7}[source]
Yes. My personal view is that the era of the nation-state is slowly ending and the era of corporate feudalism is beginning.
83. smarnach ◴[] No.44517683{3}[source]
Not even that. There's no rule in the GDPR to disclose the use of cookies. The regulation doesn't actually mention cookies at all, except maybe in an example. Instead, any data collection that's obviously required to do what the user requests (including session and shopping cart cookies) doesn't require any explicit consent. Only additional data collection, whether performed by cookies or any other means, requires consent.

That's why there are websites without cookie banners, like GitHub. It's not even hard to do that; it's just that most companies don't bother, because they know the EU will be blamed anyway.

84. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44519360[source]
> DPAs (especially the Irish one) are unfortunately known to be incredibly business friendly

Can you give me some examples of this please?

I think that the core problem for the Irish DPA is that they are woefully under-resourced, and they're up against the biggest companies in the world. Now, one could argue that this is the fault of the government/people and I'd agree with you, but that's a harder thing to change (Ireland was basically the only country that didn't throw their government out post the massive Covid/Ukraine inflation spike).

replies(1): >>44521113 #
85. MSFT_Edging ◴[] No.44519852{5}[source]
Ah yes, the period of slightly-less-suffering. What a monumental mistake on all our parts...
86. Tainnor ◴[] No.44521113{3}[source]
https://noyb.eu/en/eu-court-irish-dpc-must-investigate-noyb-...

https://archive.ph/20230123014444/https://www.irishtimes.com...

87. ◴[] No.44523591{6}[source]