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129 points surprisetalk | 6 comments | | HN request time: 0.743s | source | bottom
1. msteffen ◴[] No.44454524[source]
> The reason the Go code is so much bigger is because it checks and (kind of) handles errors everywhere (?) they could occur

I’ve said before and will say again: error handling is most of what’s hard about programming (certainly most of what’s hard about distributed systems).

I keep looking for a programming language that makes error handling a central part of the design (rather than focusing on non-error control flow of various kinds), but honestly I don’t even know what would be better than the current options (Java/Python’s exceptions, or Go’s multiple returns, or Rust’s similar-seeming Result<T, E>). I know Linus likes using goto for errors (though I think it just kind of looks like try/catch in C) but I don’t know of much else.

It would need to be the case that code that doesn’t want to handle errors (like Max’s simple website) doesn’t have any error handling code, but it’s easy to add, and common patterns (e.g. “retry this inner operation N times, maybe with back off and jitter, and then fail this outer operation, either exiting the program or leaving unaffected parts running”) are easy to express

replies(4): >>44455025 #>>44455141 #>>44456766 #>>44456873 #
2. cratermoon ◴[] No.44455025[source]
1. Define Errors Out of Existence https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/Define+Errors+Out+of+Existenc... 2. Treat errors not as something going wrong but as incomplete actions leading to alternate valid code paths.

On the second point, make errors part of the domain, and treat them as a kind of result outside the scope of the expected. Be like jazz musician Miles Davis and instead of covering up mistakes, make something wrong into something right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL4LxrN-iyw&t=183

3. rauhl ◴[] No.44455141[source]
Have you seen Common Lisp’s condition system? It’s a step above exceptions, because one can signal a condition in low-level code, handle it in high-level code and then resume back at the lower level, or anywhere in between which has established a restart.

https://gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-condi... is a nice introduction; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24867548 points to a great book about it. I believe that Smalltalk ended up using a similar system, too.

> It would need to be the case that code that doesn’t want to handle errors (like Max’s simple website) doesn’t have any error handling code, but it’s easy to add, and common patterns (e.g. “retry this inner operation N times, maybe with back off and jitter, and then fail this outer operation, either exiting the program or leaving unaffected parts running”) are easy to express

Lisp’s condition system can handle that! Here’s a dumb function which signals a continuable error when i ≤ 3:

    (defun foo ()
      (loop for i from 0
            do (if (> i 3)
                   (return (format nil "good i: ~d" i))
                   (cerror "Keep going." "~d is too low" i))))
If one runs (foo) by hand then i starts at 0 and FOO signals an error; the debugger will include the option to continue, then i is 1 and FOO signals another error and one may choose to continue. That’s good for interactive use, but kind of a pain in a program. Fortunately, there are ways to retry, and to even ignore errors completely.

If one wishes to retry up to six times, one can bind a handler which invokes the CONTINUE restart:

    (let ((j 0))
      (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (c)
           (declare (ignore c))
           ;; only retry six times
           (unless (> (incf j) 6)
             (invoke-restart 'continue)))))
        (foo)))
If one wants to ignore errors, then (ignore-errors (foo)) will run and handle the error by returning two values: NIL and the first error.
replies(1): >>44456489 #
4. msteffen ◴[] No.44456489[source]
I had heard CL’s error handling was different but didn’t understand the details. Thanks for the explanation!
5. WorldMaker ◴[] No.44456766[source]
In terms of developer ergonomics, try/catch seems among the best we've come up with so far. We want to focus on the success case and leave the error case as a footnote.

That's the simplicity argument here too: sometimes we only want to write the success case, and are happy with platform defaults for error reporting. (Another thing that PHP handled out-of-the-box because its domain was so constrained; it had started with strong default HTML output for error conditions that's fairly readable and useful for debugging. It's also useful for disclosure leaks which is why the defaults and security best practices have shifted so much from the early days of PHP when even php_info() was by default turned on and easy to run to debug some random cgi-bin server you were assigned by the hosting company that week.)

Most of the problems with try/catch aren't even really problems with that form of error handling, but with the types of the errors themselves. In C++/Java/C#/others, when an error happens we want stack traces for debugging and stack walks are expensive and may require pulling symbols data from somewhere else and that can be expensive. But that's not actually inherent to the try/catch pattern. You can throw cheaper error types. (JS you don't have to throw the nice Error family that does stack traces, you could throw a cheap string, for instance. Python has some stack walking tricks that keep its Exceptions somewhat cheaper and a lot lazier, because Python expects try/except to be a common flow control idiom.)

We also know from Haskell do-notation and now async/await in so many languages (and some of Rust's syntax sugar, etc) that you can have the try/catch syntax sugar but still power it with Result/Either monads. You can have that cake and eat it, too. In JS, a Promise is a future Either<ResolvedType, RejectedType> but in an async/await function you are writing your interactions with it as "normal JS" try/catch. Both can and do coexist in the same language together, it's not really a "battle" between the two styles, the simple conceptual model of try/catch "footnotes" and the robust type system affordances of a Result/Either monad type.

(If there is a war, it's with Go doing a worst of both worlds and not using a true flat-mappable Monad for its return type. But then that would make try/catch easy syntax sugar to build on top of it, and that seems to be the big thing they don't want, for reasons that seem as much obstinance as anything to me.)

6. immibis ◴[] No.44456873[source]
Abstracting error checking pays huge dividends, then. In PHP, if something crashes, it continues running and outputs nonsense (probably alright for the simplest of sites but you should turn this off if your thing has any kind of authentication) or it stops processing the page. PHP implicitly runs one process per request (not necessarily an OS process); everything is scoped to the request, and if the request fails it can just release every resource scoped to the request, and continue on. You could do the same in a CGI script by calling exit or abort. With any platform that handles all concurrent requests in a single process, you have to explicitly clean up a bunch of stuff, flush and close the response, and so on.

There's a similar effect in transactional databases - or transactional anything. If you run into any problem, you just abort the transaction and you don't have to care about individual cleanup steps.