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Why email startups fail

(forwardemail.net)
140 points skeptrune | 12 comments | 01 Jul 25 00:41 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 06:29 UTC] No.44431176[source]▶
It seems Forward Email has come to the exact same conclusion I did in a blog post awhile back: https://marcoapp.io/blog/marco-an-introduction

I agree that "reinventing" email, or building a business based on "AI features" are both terrible ideas.

We began building Marco not to do either of these things, but simply because _there wasn't_ any actual cross-platform IMAP client.

Apple Mail exists (but is terrible) if you only have Apple devices. Lots of other options like Superhuman and Shortwave exist, but only support Gmail+Outlook.

All we're doing is building the app that should have existed 10 years ago: a cross-platform, offline-first "Thunderbird". Except far more lightweight and modern. And yes, we've built it from the ground up. And no, it's not Electron.

https://marcoapp.io

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1. nottorp ◴[01 Jul 25 07:21 UTC] No.44431433[source]▶
> And no, it's not Electron.

> it became clear that they are developing a single web application, and then wrapping it with CapacitorJs to run on native platforms.

So what's the difference? When complaining, Electron is a generic term for instantiating a whole -ing browser to display a RecyclerView (in Android terms). Not necessarily a complaint about Electron in particular.

> offline-first

Humm. Does that mean you plan to interpose your own server between the app and imap? I sure hope not.

If you mean you keep a local copy of the emails, that's about how any decent email app works. Even Apple mail can do it for gmail over imap :)

I may actually be a potential customer, I'm just pessimistic. Not a fan of "join the waitlist" marketing either.

By the way, how much is a latte where you live?

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2. isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 07:35 UTC] No.44431523[source]▶
I think you're conflating Electron apps with hybrid apps. Electron literally bundles Chrome and NodeJs, resulting in apps that are 300mb+. The Marco macOS app is 3mb.

Yes, we have a server runtime between the client app and the upstream IMAP provider. As does Superhuman, Missive, and any other product that actually provides push notifications. For users that see this as a non-starter, we enthusiastically recommend local-only clients – Thunderbird, Talanoa, etc.

The waitlist is not marketing. We are in alpha right now and are genuinely not ready for GA. As soon as we are, the waitlist will disappear.

No, I do not live in the bay area, or even the US.

You may consider toning down the negativity in the future.

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3. nottorp ◴[01 Jul 25 08:56 UTC] No.44431957[source]▶
> Electron literally bundles Chrome and NodeJs, resulting in apps that are 300mb+. The Marco macOS app is 3mb.

... but is there any difference wrt to runtime ram usage? It's still javascript. In my experience as a user forced to use electron apps, the runtime is a fixed ram cost but then the application expands and expands and expands...

> You may consider toning down the negativity in the future.

Sorry, but I just want to read my damn email. I'd pay for that [1] since as you yourself said, Apple Mail sucks.

I do not need any extra services and especially not a dependency on another server between my email client and my email server.

Guess it's still Apple Mail or Thunderbird (Talanoa does not seem to mention working with standard email protocols). Or ssh in and use mutt :)

[1] Clearly not as much as a SV latte per month.

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4. isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 09:42 UTC] No.44432182{3}[source]▶
Yes, there is a massive difference in runtime RAM usage.

> Sorry, but I just want to read my damn email

The good news is that there are literally dozens of email client options. If cross-platform sync and push notifications don't matter to you, Apple Mail and Thunderbird are good options.

Talanoa indeed operates via Google and Microsoft APIs, not IMAP/SMTP.

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5. nottorp ◴[01 Jul 25 09:58 UTC] No.44432259{4}[source]▶
> Yes, there is a massive difference in runtime RAM usage.

JS needs some "evangelists" to explain this to people like me :)

> cross-platform sync

Um, if you use 5 clients to connect to the same imap server, you have "cross-platform sync" already don't you? It does seem to work for me.

> Apple Mail and Thunderbird are good options.

At this rate I'll probably become a donator/contributor to Thunderbird in at most two years :)

6. xandrius ◴[01 Jul 25 11:01 UTC] No.44432619[source]▶
Totally agree with you. I take the post being mainly self-promotion with the hook of being "non-electron" for the HN crowd. They still like writing in 1 language and not worry about platforms, just not using the thing called electron.
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7. isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 12:21 UTC] No.44433163[source]▶
When you're a team of two, writing in one language is a practical choice, not a philosophical one.

If we had a team of ten, we'd certainly be writing fully-native apps.

Linear, Slack, Discord. The discussion goes on ad nauseam. This thread is about email, not electron.

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8. NoGravitas ◴[01 Jul 25 18:04 UTC] No.44436524[source]▶
> Yes, we have a server runtime between the client app and the upstream IMAP provider.

I cannot see that not being a non-starter for anyone that actually understands it.

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9. NoGravitas ◴[01 Jul 25 18:08 UTC] No.44436572{4}[source]▶
> If cross-platform sync and push notifications don't matter to you, Apple Mail and Thunderbird are good options.

Cross-platform sync and push notifications are literally part of IMAP.

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10. isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 18:50 UTC] No.44436945{3}[source]▶
Superhuman, Shortwave, Missive, Spark, HEY, Canary, Zero.

Everyone has their own threshold/requirements for privacy.

I completely understand your viewpoint, to be clear.

11. isaachinman ◴[01 Jul 25 18:52 UTC] No.44436966{5}[source]▶
> push notifications are literally part of IMAP

You are conflating things. IMAP supports IDLE, NOTIFY, and _sometimes_ P-IMAP, but IMAP is never going to trigger a push notification on your iPhone/Android.

12. xandrius ◴[01 Jul 25 20:25 UTC] No.44437699{3}[source]▶
I'm also in a team of 2 and still pick the best language for the task. It depends on the person, that's all.