The $25k car is going extinct?

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation)

You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280.

Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.

To share an anecdote on the more recent side of the spectrum, I bought a new 2025 Toyota Corolla LE two months ago. It's probably the cheapest vehicle Toyota makes. My cost before tax and title (not sure if that should be included or not) was $23k. It's a pretty great car. Highway averages like 45-50 MPH (25-35 city), it's comfortable, has Car Play, and everything else you'd expect in a car now.

I'll say that the two things I'm used to having in a car that this one doesn't (since it's such a base trim) is automatic seat adjustment (not a big deal, I kind of prefer it since the automatic seats on my last vehicle died) and no remote start.

All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.

I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation.

In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24k and will probably run at $26-27k: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan

> All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.

Kind of. But my understanding is that most salaries haven't caught up to inflation especially in the last few years when the US economy had the worst inflation.

> I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup).

A base model Ford Ranger would have done it!

Salary inflation is much trickier to measure because it is confounded by years of experience increasing, getting promotions, etc. The distribution of the working population by seniority also changes over time so it's not self-correcting across the distribution. Assuming you have a good way of measuring it, (salary inflation/price inflation) would be an interesting Financial Quality of Life measure.

The Mazda 3 has gotten nicer too. I test drove one that had a HUD, adaptive cruise control with lane keeping, heated seats and paddle shifters among other features that are standard on all models.

Those are all things that were only available on luxury cars, if at all, in 2005.

In 2025 the base option package would have been a five figure option package in 2005.

In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize.

https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...

You can use real median household income [0] and real median personal income [1] to gauge potential salary inflation (real meaning CPI adjusted).

The median American household and American has gotten significantly richer than in 2005, but in the 2020-23 period, income growth slowed due to the pandemic and the subsequent slow restart of the economy.

The last time we saw similar retractions were during recessions like the 1990-93 recession, the Dot Com Bust, and the Great Recession. Turns out the "vibe check" in the early 2020s were right.

Tl;dr - the median American feels poorer in the early 2020s than they did in 2019, but they have much more earning power than they ever did before 2018. I would not be surprised if this played an outsized role in voter dynamics in the 2024 election

[0] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

[1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

The ford ranger is so much bigger and expensive now.

>I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation)

This current period of inflation is caused by the dollar losing its value due to massive over printing by the Federal Reserve. People should feel ripped off, but I think you're directing your anger at the wrong target.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the US though. Importing that vehicle is not possible for another 24 years and USD$15k goes a lot farther in southeast Asia than it does in the US. For the past half century there has been a plethora of cheap pick-up trucks available in Asia and that has not carried over to the US.

Part of the cost of cars in America is regulatory compliance.

Why can't we get these in the US? This kind of simple utilitarian vehicle is exactly what I'm looking for.

Other parts include import taxes, local wages vs outsourced wages, and margins.

Toyota uses a separate platform called IMV [0] in developing countries that doesn't meet safety standards in EU, Canada, Japan, the US, or the UK.

A lot of safety features such as around crumple zones or even airbags (in the case of the Toyota Champ) don't exist in the IMV platform.

Australia allows them (excluding the Champ), but they watered down their car safety standards in order to seal FTAs with ASEAN (2009), China (2015), and India (2022), leading to the last Australian automotive factory shutting down in 2017.

Once you start adding those safety features (and build the associated testing infra), costs end up comparable to those in Central Europe - as can be seen with the domestic and international prices of Western-oriented export models from China (Zeekr X/Volvo XC30) or India (Toyota Hyryder/Toyota Urban Cruiser).

[0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_IMV_platform

In addition to what the sibling points out, in this case of a light pickup truck the chicken tax also applies which adds 25% tariff: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

(Just an aside that median household income will of course be affected by the changing composition of households towards multi income families.)

Hence why I also provided personal income, but both data points show a significant correlation between dual-income households since the 1980s, so that is a moot point.

Also, as at this point 1980 is 45 years ago - almost 2 generations, almost like using the 1960s as a frame of reference in 2005.

At this point we've been a country of dual earners in a household for 2 generations now. It's best to assume that is the default given the overlap.

But you should compare the same cars. I bet 13k was for a basic trim, with manual, less powerful engine etc.

Car of 2025 has lots of features even in basic trims.

My first car had no ac, no power steering, no power window, etc. And I'm not that old...

Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars

That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information that actually supports or contradicts the major premise that cars are getting less affordable. Segmenting your data by picking arbitrary cutoffs (like $25,000) has its own chapter in the classic book How to Lie With Statistics.

Lol it is the Hilux.

This requires posting related info-graphic. Cheers.

https://files.catbox.moe/2d1rwq.webp

Mostly regulatory nonsense. US has very specific requirements that mean cars driven in the US have to be basically specifically designed for the US. Other than that main problem is tariffs.

That's pretty hilarious I need to find that in a poster for a Marine buddy who's a Toyota mechanic.

TBF if you go by new-car pricing now, manual has more value than a base-trim automatic. (And the automatic transmissions now are better than the automatics available in 13k cars back then.)

Everything that has increased by more than income growth has gotten less affordable. Thankfully it seems to be happening to all the most expensive things housing, vehicles, education, healthcare, etc (/s incase not obvious)

> Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars

I need a source for the year 2005 not 2025. Of course, it is easier to have a source for 2025.

Your memory is different to mine, and different to Motor Trend's, as well: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005

$15k would buy you a base-trim 2005 Corolla with an automatic or one level up with a manual.

In 2025, you can buy the LE or SE trim Corolla for under $25k, either of which are vastly better cars than the 2005 in any dimension you wish to measure. Safety, technology, comfort, performance. All improved.

The first 4 or 5 pickups in that infographic is the Toyota Land Cruiser, not the Hilux. Although this infographic is pretty funny, it's not accurate I'm afraid.

They still make the Land Cruiser more or less in that shape and configuration: https://media.cdntoyota.co.za/toyotacms23/attachments/clz2ej...

Here is 2005 list:

- Chevrolet Aveo – Starting at $9,455

- Kia Rio – Starting at $10,570

- Hyundai Accent – Starting at $10,999

- Toyota Echo – Starting at $11,110

- Ford Focus ZX3 – Starting at $13,365

- Chevrolet Cavalier – Starting at $13,405

- Chrysler PT Cruiser – Starting at $13,995

- Dodge Neon SXT – Starting at $14,195

- Pontiac Sunfire – Starting at $14,200 see: https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005

-Saturn Ion – Starting at $14,430 - see https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005

It is based on this links: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under... This is article from 2005 (at least metadata says that). The prices are verified via kbb.com which has original MSRP for all used cars.

That's a list of "top 10 cars under $15k".

It's not all cars under $15k, just the best 10 among the multitude.

The person you replied to found a "top 10 cars under $15k" list and thought that that was all the under-15k cars of 2005.

You are correct.

What do you mean by more value? In Europe manual is cheaper than automatic. In USA there are only high-performance vehicles offered with manual. However even then Elantra N is cheaper with manual.

Yeah I know you could get a basic model Corolla for around $12k in 2006 or so.

This does not match the KBB.com: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/corolla/2005/

I’m just saying that I 100% understand that you think it was “cheaper before” but there is no data to show that. I honestly feel the same. Toyota Corolla was 13k in 2000: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/corolla/2000 - 25 years ago.

The core of my argument is this: today’s news manipulates perception by playing on emotions, which ultimately distorts the truth.

This article isn’t overly political, which makes it easier for us to debate without resorting to calling each other Nazis or communists. But when it comes to politics, distortion of truth happens all the time.

I’m most familiar with Canadian pricing, and since a while, it’s been more common for manuals to be more significantly more expensive than automatic. e.g it’s like $10k extra for a manual Mazda 3 or a Cadillac CT4-V or $15k extra for a manual Mustang. This commonly is because manuals are limited to higher trim levels... but that’s kinda like EVs for some models - even if the trim is upgraded, it’s still $10k more expensive.

But you compare different cars. If you compare the same high performance vehicles (but not luxury) where there are both options - then manual often is the same or cheaper.

Bold of you to talk about distortion of truth when you are the main perpetrator of it in this thread.

Your claim of "only 10 models under $15k in 2005" is patently false, based on logic where the "Forbes 30 under 30" list is evidence that only 30 people exist younger than 30.

So yeah I guess your core argument is true, but you demonstrated by perpetuating it...

For many manual enthusiasts, a Mazda3 GX is effectively the “same car” as a Mazda3 Sport GT, with the significant difference being that the latter has manual transmission.

For me, most of the differences between a GX and a Sport GT, other than the transmission, are about as relevant as the paint colour, so telling me that they’re not comparable is like saying that I can’t compare two cars because the manual version is only available with an expensive quad-coat matte paint job. To me, that fancy paint job isn’t relevant - what’s relevant is that the manual transmission costs $10k more.

Please find a car which is missing. I was unable to find a single one.

And I also made the mistake with the list for 2025: there are 20 cars less than 25k in 2025.

See? You found problem with 2005 but you happily ignored that fact that I missed cars from 2025.

Why? Because it fits your world view. And that is how marketing works: you are convinced that cars are getting more expensive and no amount of data will change your view.

And posts on hubspot like this are paid by companies not making sub-$25k cars.

> I was unable to find a single one.

Sure you were. You already found a single one and discussed it just above.

Let me quote your own link back to you: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/corolla/2005/

A Toyota Corolla MSRP'd for $14,220 in 2005.

We haven't even started discussing your 2025 list, I'm just criticizing that you used a "top 10" list as a source saying "there were only 10 vehicles that existed meeting this criteria".

Meanwhile, if you look at your other sources, the Pontiac Sunfire link you posted shows that one did MSRP just over $15k, despite it being on your "top 10" list.

You really are in no position to criticize other people for "no amount of data will change your position", when all the data that you have presented so far is some combination of misleading, incorrect, or hallucinated.

With discounts and negotiation, you can get below MSRP. A 12k Corolla was certainly feasible in 2006.

I know this has issues. There is a more accurate one out there somewhere with actual year/models, armament specs and the conflict in which the pic was taken but I don't have quick access to it.

Still funny.

It's not dumb if it works :

https://acoup.blog/2025/05/23/collections-the-logistics-of-r...