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214 points meetpateltech | 30 comments | | HN request time: 1.078s | source | bottom
1. baron816 ◴[] No.44368529[source]
I’m optimistic about humanoid robotics, but I’m curious about the reliability issue. Biological limbs and hands are quite miraculous when you consider that they are able to constantly interact with the world, which entails some natural wear and tear, but then constantly heal themselves.
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2. marinmania ◴[] No.44368705[source]
It does either get very exciting or very spooky thinking of the possibilities in the near future.

I had always assumed that such a robot would be very specific (like a cleaning robot) but it does seem like by the time they are ready they will be very generalizable.

I know they would require quite a few sensors and motors, but compared to self-driving cars their liability would be less and they would use far less material.

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3. didip ◴[] No.44368916[source]
I think those problems can be solved with further research in material science, no? Combined that with very responsive but low torque servos, I think this is a solvable problem.
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4. fragmede ◴[] No.44369290[source]
The exciting part comes when two robots are able to do repairs on each other.
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5. pryelluw ◴[] No.44369680{3}[source]
2 bots 1 bolt ?
6. marinmania ◴[] No.44369964{3}[source]
I think this is the spooky part. I feel dumb saying it, but is there a point where they are able to coordinate and build a factory to build chips/more of themselves? Or other things entirely?
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7. UltraSane ◴[] No.44370019[source]
Consumable components could be automatically replaced by other robots.
8. michaelt ◴[] No.44370705[source]
It's a simple matter of the number of motors you have. [1]

Assume every motor has a 1% failure rate per year.

A boring wheeled roomba has 3 motors. That's a 2.9% failure rate per year, and 8.6% failures over 3 years.

Assume a humanoid robot has 43 motors. That gives you a 35% failure rate per year, and 73% over 3 years. That ain't good.

And not only is the humanoid robot less reliable, it's also 14.3x the price - because it's got 14.3x as many motors in it.

[1] And bearings and encoders and gearboxes and control boards and stuff... but they're largely proportional to the number of motors.

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9. mewpmewp2 ◴[] No.44371102{3}[source]
Would it be possible to reduce the failure rates?
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10. michaelt ◴[] No.44371392{4}[source]
To an extent, yes.

For example, an industrial robot arm with 6 motors achieves much higher reliability than a consumer roomba with 3 motors. They do this with more metal parts, more precision machining, much more generous design tolerances, and suchlike. Which they can afford by charging 100x as much per unit.

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11. bamboozled ◴[] No.44371403{4}[source]
Of course there is
12. ac29 ◴[] No.44371419{4}[source]
The 1%/year failure rate appears to just be made up. There are plenty of electric motors that dont have anywhere near that failure rate (at least during the expected service life, failure rates certainly will probably hit 1%/year or higher eventually).

For example, do the motors in hard drives fail anywhere close to 1% a year in the first ~5 years? Backblaze data gives a total drive failure rate around 1% and I imagine most of those are not due to failure of motors.

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13. michaelt ◴[] No.44371682{5}[source]
Yes, obviously that 1% figure is a simplification. Of course not all motors are created equal, and neither are all operating conditions!

But the neat thing about my argument is it holds true regardless of the underlying failure rate!

So long as your per-motor annual failure rate is >0, 43x it will be bigger than 3x it.

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14. bamboozled ◴[] No.44372092[source]
I'm interested how differences with robots work overtime, there are a lot of machines in this world that have been patched or "jimmied up" to continue working, let's say a mining robot, it would probably get quite heavily contaminated with dust, wear would occur in different places, rock falls might bend parts.

So even though another robot could probably do the "jimmy up". it seems like overtime, the robots will "drift" into all being a bit different.

Even commercial airlines seem to go through fairly unique repairs from things like collisions with objects, tail strikes etc.

Maybe it's just easier to recycle robots?

15. bamboozled ◴[] No.44372110{5}[source]
Also factory robots arms are probably operating in highly sterile, dry environments? How would working in a muddy / dusty / wet environment change this?
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16. gene-h ◴[] No.44372367[source]
Industrial robots at least are very reliable, MTBF is often upwards of 100,000 hours[0]. Industrial robots are optimized to be as reliable as possible because the longer they last and less often they need to be fixed, the more profitable they are. In fact, German and Japanese companies came to dominate the industrial robotics market because they focused on reliability. They developed rotary electric actuators that were more reliable. Cincinnati Millicron(US) was out competed in the industrial robot market because although their hydraulic robots were strong, they were less reliable.

I am personally a bit skeptical of anthropormophic hands achieving similarly high reliability. There's just too many small parts that need to withstand high forces.

[0]https://robotsdoneright.com/Articles/what-are-the-different-...

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17. Robelius ◴[] No.44373543{6}[source]
When designing hardware, you usually define what the expected operating environments are. Some typical environmental considerations are the min/max temperature, debris ingress, shock & vibration. If you know your product is going to operate in an area where material is likely to enter the product, then you can either try to keep that material out (sealing the product up), or make sure that dust entering the product won't cause failures (i.e. electrical shorts won't happen on a board by covering exposed areas with glue or making sure a mechanism can crush/clear particles). It's not necessarily more complexity in the product to navigate these constrains, but it is another thing to consider in the design.

For example, if you're making a phone that is going to be sold around the world, then you're going to worry about arctic/equator temps (will some of your components melt or ICs fail), salty sea air (will the product begin to corrode for people living by a beach), or fast moving elevators (will the speakers pop from a sudden change in pressure).

You can check out this manufacturers robot arms as some examples of existing products. They list some data sheets for their robot arms, including some arms that are IPxx rated. I don't think looking at robot arms is a 1to1 comparison for what you could expect from a humanoid robot since the considerations in the design process are going to be different.

website is kuka dot com/en-at/products/robotics-systems/industrial-robots/kr-agilus

18. ta988 ◴[] No.44373587{3}[source]
But this still has a massive cost. Replacing or repairing an actuator isn't cheap, in material and in time of unavailability.
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19. ta988 ◴[] No.44373589{6}[source]
Search for CNC videos, those machines work in oily, soapy, dusty and full of metal shavings environments and do fine.
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20. bamboozled ◴[] No.44373666{7}[source]
It's still a fairly controlled environment with splash guards, liquid based dusts suppression and or dust collection, even then my friend has a factory and the CNC is a reliable machine but things screw up.

If the dust collection was disabled, the workshop and the machine would be caked in debris.

It doesn't move, it doesn't fall over or have anything falling on top of it either (like a robot could).

21. elcritch ◴[] No.44373874{3}[source]
With more motors and joints also comes some degree of redundancy however. Having multiple fingers means one finger dying won't be as big of an impedement. It'd require feedback and the ability for the motion planner / AI to account for it.

Plus they'll likely be modular and able to be replaced.

IMHO, the bigger design issue for humanistic is lowering the need for mechanical precision which requires lots more metals and instead using adaptive feedback and sensors to obtain accuracy similar to how humans and animals do it. AIs should be really good at that, eventually. I think the compute will need to be about 10x what it is now though.

22. jacobaul ◴[] No.44373895{4}[source]
To maybe get a little carried away with the sci-fi for a minute, why does the Actuator need to cost anything?

When the tree of costs that make up a product are traced, surely all the leaf nodes are human labour? As in, to make the actuator, I had to pay someone to assemble it and I had to buy the parts. Each part had a materials cost and a labour cost. So it goes for the factory that made the fasteners, the foundry that made the steel, the mine that extracted the ore.

Shudder to think of how to regulate resource extraction in a future where AI humanoid robots are strip mining and logging for free.

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23. ragebol ◴[] No.44374063[source]
If you E-stop an industrial robot, it stops immediately, all OK. If a humanoid were to freeze like that, it would fall over and hurt you and your stuff on the way down, when it'll damage itself.

Mechanical reliability is not the main concern IMO

24. michaelt ◴[] No.44374217{6}[source]
Some are, some aren't.

For example, MIG welding robots tend to life a hard life. And if you look at photos of industrial painting robots, you'll find they're often fitted with plastic smocks.

If you look up photos online you'll only get marketing images from robot makers, where everything is shiny and brand new - I can assure you, it's not like that after they've been operating for a decade or two :)

25. david-gpu ◴[] No.44374390{5}[source]
> When the tree of costs that make up a product are traced, surely all the leaf nodes are human labour?

What about energy, real estate and taxes?

Even at the extreme end of automation, if you want iron ore, you need to buy a mine from somebody, pay taxes on it, and power the machines to extract the minerals and transport them elsewhere for processing.

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26. mrheosuper ◴[] No.44375014{6}[source]
your calculation is true, but the absolute number is needed here.

43x of 1% failure rate is tragic, but 43x of 0.1% is acceptable in my book.

27. chrsw ◴[] No.44379728{4}[source]
Yes but like almost everything it comes down to cost. Most consumer devices are extremely cost constrained. Industrial robots can justify higher costs that come with higher reliability.
28. jacobaul ◴[] No.44387481{6}[source]
The same logic applies to energy I think. We don't have to pay money to a wind turbine, or to a coal mine. We only pay money to humans to build the power plants and the grid.

If I were writing a sci-fi novel about this I don't know how I'd handle something real estate (or mineral rights or water rights). You already need permission from the government to extract resources.

As for taxes, why does the government even want the money? What are they going to do with it?

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29. david-gpu ◴[] No.44388165{7}[source]
Energy, ultimately, requires real estate --and thus property taxes-- even at the logical extreme of automation.

> As for taxes, why does the government even want the money? What are they going to do with it?

There are websites that break down how e.g. different national/federal budgets are divvied up in the real world. Alternatively, I suggest a good book on macroeconomics; I am partial to Steve Keen's "Debunking Economics", but there are many others.

30. mewpmewp2 ◴[] No.44394026{6}[source]
Uuids have failure possibilities, yet they are used very successfully. It is all about the failure rate.