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246 points world2vec | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.822s | source
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cooper_ganglia ◴[] No.44357881[source]
I remember being in school in 2006 and being told that outside of our solar system is a "wall of fire" that we would never be able to cross.

I don't know if any of this info was speculated at that point in time, but it turns out that teacher was at least partially correct!

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jordanb ◴[] No.44358002[source]
Probably true, in that if you try to travel interstellar distances you'll going to have to deal with very hot particles hitting your ship on occasion. If you travel slowly the more time you're going to be spend getting hit by high energy particles. If you try to travel quickly you're going to have to deal with more relatively high energy particles. It's potentially enough to make interstellar travel impossible.
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SoftTalker ◴[] No.44358331[source]
It's impossible for many reasons unless there are physics we haven't discovered yet. To me that's the simple answer for the Fermi paradox.
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andrewflnr ◴[] No.44358863[source]
The Fermi paradox doesn't require travel, though. The lack of any sign of life at all is still surprising (no radio signals, etc), even if we knew it couldn't physically come here.
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flatline ◴[] No.44360486[source]
It would take a lot of power to send even a radio signal that could be picked out from the noise at a few light years. Add a requirement for that signal to be more or less continuous over geologic timescales - we’ve only been able to emit and detect these for ~100 years - and my personal surprise diminishes rapidly. Huge distances in time and space with human-level technology make detection highly unlikely.
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1. ojosilva ◴[] No.44361310[source]
Yes, and I would add my favorite hypothesis to the paradox, an anthropocentric assumption theory of self importance... or let's call it an anthropocentric bias:

Humans tend to define intelligence, life, and communication based on our own structure -carbon-based biology, electromagnetic signaling, language, symbolic thought, etc. This narrows the scope of our search.

We assume other civilizations want to communicate, would use similar media (radio, light, mathematics), and would send signals we could interpret. This ignores other potential modalities (quantum, neutrino, gravitational, exotic matter, etc.) or entirely non-signal-based forms of interaction.

We may not even recognize signs of intelligent activity if they don't resemble our expectations, ie entire civilizations could exist in forms of computation or energy we can’t perceive.

We assume ET intelligences are aligned with our timeframe or curiosity. Maybe they don’t care to communicate, see us as trivial, or operate on million-year attention spans.

It may reflect less the silence of the cosmos and more the limits of our understanding, especially the assumption that we're capable of detecting or interpreting intelligence beyond Earth. A epistemic humility, or rather our lack of it.

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2. esprehn ◴[] No.44361523[source]
The counter argument is that even if civilizations exist with all the properties you described, given the vastness of space, there should be another civilization that pattern matches to us.
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3. andrewflnr ◴[] No.44362047[source]
There's epistemic humility, then there's indulging in unfalsifiable fantasies in the name of not ruling anything out.

> Humans tend to define intelligence, life, and communication based on our own structure -carbon-based biology, electromagnetic signaling, language, symbolic thought, etc.

I would posit that none of these properties are coincidences, and are in fact likely to evolve convergently in most if not all circumstances hospitable to life. In particular I very much expect ET life to be carbon based; I don't believe there's a true viable alternative outside scifi (hint: silicon ain't it).

> entire civilizations could exist in forms of computation or energy we can’t perceive.

Could they? Really? There aren't that many gaps in the Standard Model. The aliens could be made of dark matter, I guess, and remain forever undetectable, but that's not to far off believing in invisible fairy kingdoms. And it still wouldn't explain why the baryonic sector is so devoid of detectable life. Ethereal undetectable aliens don't mean regular ones can't also exist.

> Maybe they don’t care to communicate, see us as trivial, or operate on million-year attention spans.

This one I'll grant (sort of: what's the evolutionary path toward such entities arising?), but it's still weird that we haven't seen any sign at all of them. These entities live on million-year timescales but have no visible effect on their surroundings? Why?

And more importantly, why is that the only thing that happens? Because if it isn't the only thing, then the question remains of why can't we see anything else?

4. dgfl ◴[] No.44370243[source]
Nobody would be communicating with neutrinos or gravitational energy. EM radiation is way easier to emit and detect, and at cosmic distances they all scale exactly identically (inverse square law). The other things you mentioned are mostly sci-fi inventions and there’s nothing in known or unknown physics that would hint towards them being plausible communication media.

It’s not about being shortsighted, it’s about everyone being constrained by the same laws of physics. Our models, however imperfect, are still unreasonably good.

5. ojosilva ◴[] No.44371909[source]
Sure! All the hypothesis in the Fermi paradox deal ultimately with calibrating our expectations of making contact, not with denying the existence of "STEM-enabled" species like us yearning for an alien encounter.