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How to live on $432 a month in America

(shagbark.substack.com)
526 points cactusplant7374 | 55 comments | 23 May 25 16:40 UTC | HN request time: 0.9s | source | bottom
1. 999900000999 ◴[23 May 25 20:15 UTC] No.44076233[source]▶
>Though I and my wife do not presently live in Massena, we live nearby, and we’re doing exactly this — we do not have an automobile, nor do we want one. We use the rural county transit bus, which we have found to be extremely cheap and quite reliable; and it has certainly saved us thousands and thousands of dollars by liberating us from the onerous expense of keeping a car.

This part has me screaming shenanigans. Unless you basically don't leave the house, you need a car outside of like 8 American cities. More believable would be a pair of used bikes.

replies(5): >>44076636 #>>44076913 #>>44076976 #>>44077424 #>>44084527 #
2. fzeroracer ◴[23 May 25 21:11 UTC] No.44076636[source]▶
Agreed, looking at the map of Massena this seems like bullshit. I've lived without a car for my entire life across multiple states and it is incredibly onerous in even mildly dense areas.
replies(1): >>44076773 #
3. monroeclinton ◴[23 May 25 21:26 UTC] No.44076773[source]▶
https://www.slcnypublictransit.com/transit-schedules

It seems like they have a good number of routes and do route deviation within 3/4 of a mile of the bus stop.

replies(1): >>44076889 #
4. fzeroracer ◴[23 May 25 21:42 UTC] No.44076889{3}[source]▶
Frequency is often as important as the route from experience; because a route that's reasonably distant from your location can be walked to/biked to etc but a low-frequency route means it's something you need to plan your entire day around. And if you miss any bus then you're stranded (which, given that they don't have internet I'm curious how they manage...)

Most of the bus routes here seem to run maybe twice a day, once early in the morning and then once late in the afternoon. There's a few more frequent ones that run on the hour but it looks to be closer to the denser cores.

replies(2): >>44076924 #>>44077245 #
5. bombcar ◴[23 May 25 21:45 UTC] No.44076913[source]▶
That’s obviously not true, if you change what you “have” to go to.

There are thousands of American towns that are about 10k population - large enough to have a Walmart and other stores, small enough to walk across in an hour or so.

replies(4): >>44077037 #>>44077156 #>>44077444 #>>44093176 #
6. bombcar ◴[23 May 25 21:47 UTC] No.44076924{4}[source]▶
Rural bus routes used to be very common - they commute in in the morning and out in the afternoon.

You change your schedule to handle that, and they usually will drive the van (barely a bus) up to your door.

7. potato3732842 ◴[23 May 25 21:56 UTC] No.44076976[source]▶
Might be a slight of hand? Maybe he has a moped like the DUI people do.
8. cozzyd ◴[23 May 25 22:04 UTC] No.44077037[source]▶
While such towns may have walkable cores, often places like Walmart are a huge pain to walk to.
replies(1): >>44077602 #
9. 999900000999 ◴[23 May 25 22:23 UTC] No.44077156[source]▶
Once it gets cold you won't be walking much anywhere. I guess grocery delivery from Walmart can mitigate this, but that fundamentally changes the situation.
replies(3): >>44077206 #>>44077530 #>>44082923 #
10. cozzyd ◴[23 May 25 22:34 UTC] No.44077206{3}[source]▶
Why not? You can walk plenty in the cold with the right equipment. I walked 2+ km a day at the south pole ...
replies(4): >>44077365 #>>44077472 #>>44077669 #>>44079021 #
11. fullStackOasis ◴[23 May 25 22:41 UTC] No.44077245{4}[source]▶
> a low-frequency route means it's something you need to plan your entire day around.

Okay but the dude is making $5K/y which means he basically has no job and he sits around in his house all week or goes hiking etc. His most exciting day of adventure will literally consist of taking the bus to the library to check out a book, and bringing it back home (while reading it on the bus, perhaps). He can totally afford to plan his entire day around the event.

12. 999900000999 ◴[23 May 25 23:00 UTC] No.44077365{4}[source]▶
It's really dangerous if you don't know what your doing. I'm about .5 km from the closest supermarket.

If it's snowing or just cold out I'm still ordering food.

If I'm mildly sick, ordering food.

I'm going to guess that you're a really good shape that a 2 km walk isn't a big deal, but I don't think most Americans can do that.

replies(8): >>44077406 #>>44077457 #>>44077614 #>>44077846 #>>44079764 #>>44079964 #>>44080317 #>>44086987 #
13. xyzzy123 ◴[23 May 25 23:07 UTC] No.44077406{5}[source]▶
One way (not the only way and I get this won't work well for people with medical needs or kids) to handle this is stock up on rice, beans, nonperishables and have a good first aid kit. You go out to get your "freshies" but it's not an issue to be stuck at home for a week except in the most dire circumstances.
14. xp84 ◴[23 May 25 23:12 UTC] No.44077424[source]▶
I agree that his deliberate deletion of a car and Internet access from the example budget undermines his point, but adding $200 to support the cost of owning a cheap car and $45 for a prepaid cellphone plan with ample tethering doesn't change the overall equation significantly.
replies(1): >>44077621 #
15. ◴[23 May 25 23:14 UTC] No.44077444[source]▶
16. coolcase ◴[23 May 25 23:17 UTC] No.44077457{5}[source]▶
> I'm going to guess that you're a really good shape that a 2 km walk isn't a big deal, but I don't think most Americans can do that.

Shit that's horrifying.

I have health issues and walking 2km a day to try to help fix. So I see 2km a day as basic. 6-10km run a day would be "fit" IMO. things as humans are designed to walk.

Living in suburbia means I have to walk "for the sake of it" although I cam make it useful e.g. get some milk!

As for cold. Anything above minus 5 should be OK just wear stuff like skiiers wear which can be got cheap off brand.

replies(1): >>44077560 #
17. tshaddox ◴[23 May 25 23:18 UTC] No.44077472{4}[source]▶
47 people died in a blizzard in Buffalo, New York in 2022.
replies(1): >>44081006 #
18. bombcar ◴[23 May 25 23:27 UTC] No.44077530{3}[source]▶
Let’s not pretend that the cold regions of the world were uninhabitable before the invention of the car.
replies(1): >>44077678 #
19. 999900000999 ◴[23 May 25 23:34 UTC] No.44077560{6}[source]▶
77% percent of young Americans aren't fit for service.

2 km of walking in a day, even in great weather is exceptional for me. I probably average 1km or less.

And I'm not a car owner. My family members will literally hop in a car and drive 30 minutes over walking .5 km to the grocery store. They like the other one more they say.

replies(4): >>44077903 #>>44080650 #>>44081010 #>>44085460 #
20. Aeolun ◴[23 May 25 23:40 UTC] No.44077602{3}[source]▶
If you need only $400 a month, you have a looot of time to spend walking to Walmart.
replies(1): >>44078025 #
21. Aeolun ◴[23 May 25 23:42 UTC] No.44077614{5}[source]▶
0.5km is like, 6 minutes of walking?

How? It just doesn’t compute to me that someone would ever see that as onerous.

replies(1): >>44077891 #
22. 999900000999 ◴[23 May 25 23:43 UTC] No.44077621[source]▶
It's less click bait-ish. The max SSI payment is 967$.

https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/amount

So you have a ton of people trying to make it off that.

The cold weather is really the red flag for me.

>Considering that the property has a well on-site, water is free, and as far as heat goes, well, one could either pay a little extra in electric for that — or they could have the Amish deliver their scrap wood from their sawmills to burn in a wood stove, very cheaply.

He glosses over heating, but for a full house that can easily be 200 or 300$ dollars.

Snow tends to cause problems. Now if he wrote this living in Florida or something it would be more practical. No risk of freezing. Walking or biking is possible year round.

I'd actually love to see a bike first city, but outside of a few college towns I don't think it exists in the states

replies(3): >>44077760 #>>44082917 #>>44085428 #
23. mattnewton ◴[23 May 25 23:53 UTC] No.44077669{4}[source]▶
There are no sidewalks, so you are walking in a street in the snow asking to become a statistic.
24. danbolt ◴[23 May 25 23:55 UTC] No.44077678{4}[source]▶
They weren’t, but they were zoned and organized a lot differently compared to our post-war world of today.
replies(1): >>44082943 #
25. firesteelrain ◴[24 May 25 00:12 UTC] No.44077760{3}[source]▶
You can bike year round in Florida and bike or walk to work if you are in vicinity. Even go to grocery store or in some cases use a golf cart. At least one car is still preferable.
26. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 00:28 UTC] No.44077846{5}[source]▶
Huh? I'm not in great shape but I get 2km of walking a day just with my commute. According to my watch I've averaged 13k steps a day this week (something like 9-10 km a day, I think?). Ironically the days I walk the least are when I decide to bike to work instead of taking the train...
27. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 00:36 UTC] No.44077891{6}[source]▶
Surely you walk that much inside any reasonably sized grocery store.
replies(1): >>44080325 #
28. bcraven ◴[24 May 25 00:39 UTC] No.44077903{7}[source]▶
This is just utterly astonishing to me. I've just checked a map and it's ~0.5 km between where I park at work and my office!
replies(1): >>44078075 #
29. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 01:07 UTC] No.44078025{4}[source]▶
It's not the distance, but hostile roads with no safe crossings.
replies(2): >>44080142 #>>44082285 #
30. 999900000999 ◴[24 May 25 01:20 UTC] No.44078075{8}[source]▶
Your going to have to walk both ways, in the rain/snow, etc ?

Like a lot of comments have already mentioned these towns don't even have sidewalks. You'll be walking on the side of the street risking an accident

replies(2): >>44079498 #>>44080597 #
31. davidcbc ◴[24 May 25 05:43 UTC] No.44079021{4}[source]▶
What are you buying this equipment with in this scenario?
replies(1): >>44083417 #
32. xboxnolifes ◴[24 May 25 08:51 UTC] No.44079764{5}[source]▶
> I'm going to guess that you're a really good shape that a 2 km walk isn't a big deal, but I don't think most Americans can do that.

Most Americans would be able to do it if it became a regular occurrence for them. 2km of walking is not much even if you sit around 24 hours a day.

replies(1): >>44080345 #
33. Lionga ◴[24 May 25 09:51 UTC] No.44079964{5}[source]▶
You need to be in good shape to fucking walk 2km? WTF is wrong with people in murica? Well is guess they are just ordering fast food all day
34. bombcar ◴[24 May 25 10:36 UTC] No.44080142{5}[source]▶
My admittedly unscientific survey of small Midwestern towns with Walmarts (that are NOT suburbs!) is that you can walk to the Walmart on sidewalks. At most, you have half a block to the nearest sidewalk, or have to cross the street.

Some of the middling-old sections only have one sidewalk. The oldest have them on both sides of the street, and the newest developments have them also, usually.

replies(2): >>44080929 #>>44081351 #
35. npodbielski ◴[24 May 25 11:16 UTC] No.44080317{5}[source]▶
500 hundred metres? This is long for you? If there is snow you can't walk? Why? Snow is much beteer than rain. And still it is just a couple of minutes. You most probably would not get wet with proper clothes. Are you from US by the chance?
replies(1): >>44087630 #
36. npodbielski ◴[24 May 25 11:18 UTC] No.44080325{7}[source]▶
In IKEA you probably walk around about 1km for just one visit considering how they design their space.
37. npodbielski ◴[24 May 25 11:23 UTC] No.44080345{6}[source]▶
I am sitting in front of PC probably around 10hours a day and drink and sit rest of my day (excluding sleep) and still it is not a big deal for me to have a 7km walk to the city or back is not a big deal.

I think in US it just cultural. "You are walking?! With your feet?! How?!". Unless you more likely to get shot walking via some neighbourhood I can't understand that.

38. oblio ◴[24 May 25 12:16 UTC] No.44080597{9}[source]▶
Is there a lot of traffic in places with 10k residents?
39. esrauch ◴[24 May 25 12:32 UTC] No.44080650{7}[source]▶
Are you sure you mean .5km? That's only 0.3 miles, 1500 feet. That is the distance if you drive to a Walmart supercenter and park in the center of the parking lot and walk to the door.
40. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 13:19 UTC] No.44080929{6}[source]▶
The two smallish towns I've spent significant time in (Tomah WI and Palestine TX) both have difficult to walk to Walmarts. But glad to hear it's not universal!

I see from Google maps that here in Illinois the situation seems to be a bit better... (E.g. Morris, Rantoul and even Du Quoin). Du Quoin seems very inexpensive and seems like it would make a better argument than somewhere truly rural (it even has Amtrak service)

41. andriamanitra ◴[24 May 25 13:34 UTC] No.44081006{5}[source]▶
..in what National Weather Service described as "once-in-a-generation storm". Walking 2 km on a normal winter day (or even a mild blizzard) is not dangerous.
replies(1): >>44081844 #
42. harvey9 ◴[24 May 25 13:34 UTC] No.44081010{7}[source]▶
I am 50 years old and don't think I'd pass fit for service either, but I can still easily walk a few Kms.
43. macNchz ◴[24 May 25 14:27 UTC] No.44081351{6}[source]▶
The Walmart in the area from this article is separated from the main town by a four lane road with no sidewalks, across which the nearest crosswalks are more than half a mile away in either direction—so you’re either playing high stakes Frogger, or, depending on your starting location, you might conceivably have to walk nearly two hours out of your way round trip along the shoulder of this road to use a crosswalk. They also get five feet of snow per year, so a good part of the year that walk is extra dangerous and miserable.

I can’t say for sure, but I think this is much more typical of American Walmarts than it is to be able to easily walk to them.

Streetview of your opponent as a pedestrian trying to access the Massena Walmart: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ufTWTHxHCReFP8VA9

44. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 15:47 UTC] No.44081844{6}[source]▶
And to be clear, driving in a blizzard is very dangerous too. But blizzards happen a minority of the time.
45. lolinder ◴[24 May 25 16:58 UTC] No.44082285{5}[source]▶
We're talking about towns of 10k. Traffic in these towns is pretty sparse and easily navigable as a pedestrian.
46. testing22321 ◴[24 May 25 18:28 UTC] No.44082917{3}[source]▶
I biked year round in the Yukon. -40 and beyond is a fun challenge.
47. testing22321 ◴[24 May 25 18:29 UTC] No.44082923{3}[source]▶
Gimme a break. I walked and biked year round in the Yukon. Past -40 I had to keep moving, but it was fun
48. rufus_foreman ◴[24 May 25 18:32 UTC] No.44082943{5}[source]▶
This is true. I recently read that the real reason that the Vikings left North America was that the Native American authorities informed them that their site on L'Anse aux Meadows was not zoned for boat repair and construction.
49. cozzyd ◴[24 May 25 19:54 UTC] No.44083417{5}[source]▶
Right, I mean obviously the scenario in the article is unrealistic budget wise (and good winter equipment is going to be at least several hundred dollars), but I'm pushing back against the idea you can't walk when it's cold ...
50. bitcurious ◴[24 May 25 23:55 UTC] No.44084527[source]▶
It's just a tradeoff. ~20 hours of low wage employment is more than enough to cover a car. Instead they choose to spend those ~20 hours walking/waiting for the bus. Certainly not a trade I would make.
51. sarchertech ◴[25 May 25 04:04 UTC] No.44085428{3}[source]▶
> He glosses over heating, but for a full house that can easily be 200 or 300$ dollars.

Not at $0.04/kwh for a 600 square foot house it won’t.

52. sarchertech ◴[25 May 25 04:11 UTC] No.44085460{7}[source]▶
The average American walks 2.4 miles per day per the CDC.
53. rsynnott ◴[25 May 25 11:06 UTC] No.44086987{5}[source]▶
> I'm going to guess that you're a really good shape that a 2 km walk isn't a big deal, but I don't think most Americans can do that.

... Wait, what? That's less than half an hour walking at a fairly relaxed pace.

54. sarchertech ◴[25 May 25 13:23 UTC] No.44087630{6}[source]▶
The average American walks 2.4 miles per day according to the CDC, this person is truly exceptional even among people the most car centric American towns.

You’ll walk more than 500m through the aisles in Walmart buying your groceries.

55. therealdrag0 ◴[26 May 25 01:49 UTC] No.44093176[source]▶
And 10k is not even that small. I have family in a town of 4K and it has 2 full grocery stores and a Walmart super center.