Most active commenters
  • johnisgood(9)

←back to thread

648 points bradgessler | 22 comments | | HN request time: 1.035s | source | bottom
Show context
don_neufeld ◴[] No.44009004[source]
Completely agree.

From all of my observations, the impact of LLMs on human thought quality appears largely corrosive.

I’m very glad my kid’s school has hardcore banned them. In some class they only allow students to turn in work that was done in class, under the direct observation of the teacher. There has also been a significant increase in “on paper” work vs work done on computer.

Lest you wonder “what does this guy know anyways?”, I’ll share that I grew up in a household where both parents were professors of education.

Understanding the effectiveness of different methods of learning (my dad literally taught Science Methods) were a frequent topic. Active learning (creating things using what you’re learning about) is so much more effective than passive, reception oriented methods. I think LLMs largely are supporting the latter.

replies(6): >>44009388 #>>44010296 #>>44010436 #>>44010768 #>>44011460 #>>44011653 #
1. johnisgood ◴[] No.44010436[source]
You can learn a lot from LLMs though, same with, say, Wikipedia. You need curiosity. You need the desire to learn. If you do not have it, then of course you will get nowhere, LLMs or no LLMs.
replies(5): >>44010465 #>>44010488 #>>44011049 #>>44011406 #>>44011771 #
2. azinman2 ◴[] No.44010465[source]
Never underestimate laziness, or willingness to take something 80% as good for 1% of the work.

So most are not curious. So what do you do for them?

replies(4): >>44010539 #>>44011707 #>>44013944 #>>44014968 #
3. snackernews ◴[] No.44010488[source]
Can you learn a lot? Or do you get instant answers to every question without learning anything, as OP suggests?
replies(2): >>44010530 #>>44010968 #
4. johnisgood ◴[] No.44010530[source]
You can learn a lot, if you want to. I can ask it a question with regarding to pharmacodynamics of some medication, and I can ask more and more questions, and learn. Similarly, I could pick up a book on pharmacology, but LLMs can definitely make learning easier.
5. johnisgood ◴[] No.44010539[source]
You have to somehow figure out the root cause of the laziness, or if it really is laziness, and not something else, e.g. a mental health issue.

Plus, many kids fail school not because of laziness, but because of their toxic environment.

replies(1): >>44010997 #
6. calebkaiser ◴[] No.44010968[source]
You can learn an incredible amount. I do quite a bit of research as a core part of my job, and LLMs are amazing at helping me find relevant research to help me explore ideas. Something like "I'm thinking of X. Does this make sense and do you know of any similar research?" I also mentor some students whose educational journey has been fundamentally changed by them.

Like any other tool, it's more a question of how they're used. For example, I've seen incredible results for students who use ChatGPT to interrogate ideas as they synthesize them. So, for example, "I'm reading this passage PASSAGE and I'm confused about phrase X. The core idea seems similar to Y, which I am familiar with. if I had to explain X, I'd put it like this ATTEMPT Can you help me understand what I'm missing?"

The results are very impressive. I'd encourage you to try it out if you haven't.

replies(1): >>44011022 #
7. Swizec ◴[] No.44010997{3}[source]
> if it really is laziness, and not something else, e.g. a mental health issue.

Kids optimize. When I was in high school I was fully capable of getting straight F's in a class I didn't care about and straight A's in a class I enjoyed.

Why bother learning chemistry when you could instead spend that time coding cool plugins and websites in PHP that thousands of internet strangers are using? I really did build one of the most popular phpBB plugins and knew I was gonna be a software engineer. Not that my chemistry professor cared about any of that or even understood what I'm talking about.

replies(1): >>44013595 #
8. vendiddy ◴[] No.44011022{3}[source]
I've used it these past few months to better understand the PDF format, Nix, and a few other technical concepts.

I try to use AI to automate things I already know and force myself to learn things I don't know.

It takes discipline/curiosity but it can be a net positive.

replies(1): >>44012917 #
9. layer8 ◴[] No.44011049[source]
From the article:

“The irony is that I now know more than I ever would have before AI. But I feel slightly dumber. A bit more dull. LLMs give me finished thoughts, polished and convincing, but none of the intellectual growth that comes from developing them myself. The output from AI answers questions. It teaches me facts. But it doesn’t really help me know anything new.”

I think the thesis is that with AI there is less need and incentive to “put the work in” instead of just consuming what the AI outputs, and that in consequence we do the needed work less and atrophy.

replies(1): >>44012902 #
10. creata ◴[] No.44011406[source]
Honestly, I doubt that LLMs are great for learning. Too often, they output plausible-sounding things that turn out to be completely wrong. I know Wikipedia can have its problems with factuality, but this is on an entirely different level. (And yes, they do this even when they're allowed to do web searches and "reason".)

The effort of verifying everything it claims may or may not outweigh the effort of other means of learning.

11. BobbyTables2 ◴[] No.44011707[source]
Realistically, putting them into trades sooner could almost be a good thing. Kids who don’t want to learn end up dragging down the class and distracting those who do.

But, these are kids… Hard to argue that adults should selectively deny education when it is their responsibility to do otherwise.

We don’t neglect the handicapped because it is inconvenient to provide them with assistance.

12. hooverd ◴[] No.44011771[source]
Wikipedia isn't going to write your paper for you. I don't see the difference between an LLM and one of those paper writing services in this context.
replies(1): >>44012964 #
13. johnisgood ◴[] No.44012902[source]
I know, that is why you need the desire, the will to learn. I have been using LLMs for this, so I know it is possible. I understand what you are saying though, and it is indeed a sad state of affairs, but then again, this was the case due to search engines, Wikipedia, and so forth, long before LLMs.

Again, you can truly learn a lot using LLMs, but you have to approach it properly. It does not have to be just "facts", and sometimes, even learning "facts" is learning.

I can use LLMs and learn nothing, but I can use LLMs to learn, too!

replies(1): >>44014290 #
14. johnisgood ◴[] No.44012917{4}[source]
Thank you, and the previous commenter. I am tired of trying to convince people that LLM can be a really good tool for learning. :/

They should just simply try it. Start with something you actually know to see how useful it might be to you with your prompts.

15. johnisgood ◴[] No.44012964[source]
We are talking about learning. You can learn much more from LLMs than Wikipedia, because if you do not understand something, you can always ask an LLM about it, and it would reply to you in any way you want; whatever helps you learn better.
16. johnisgood ◴[] No.44013595{4}[source]
What you just described is irrelevant to what we are discussing.

As for what you said, yeah, I got 1s (Fs) because I was too busy coding and reading books on philosophy, as a 14 years old.

replies(1): >>44014557 #
17. BeFlatXIII ◴[] No.44013944[source]
Leave ‘em behind and win the race.
18. layer8 ◴[] No.44014290{3}[source]
Yes, but previously you didn’t need the desire that much, because you were more forced to it, there was no easy way. The fact that now you need that internal motivation means that it will happen less, where previously it happened by default.
replies(1): >>44014611 #
19. Swizec ◴[] No.44014557{5}[source]
How is it irrelevant? Kids will always cheat their way through classes they feel are a distraction. Even the super smart Type A kids.

Hell, all humans do that. You use every resource available to get out of dealing with things that are not your priority. This means you will never be good at those things and that’s fine. You can’t be good at everything.

replies(1): >>44014636 #
20. johnisgood ◴[] No.44014611{4}[source]
I agree, it is sort of like a double-edged sword, I would say.
21. johnisgood ◴[] No.44014636{6}[source]
They will, but we were talking about the will or motivation to learn. If someone has a curious mind, and actually wants to learn, then they can definitely use LLMs to do that.

I don't disagree with you though.

22. AstroBen ◴[] No.44014968[source]
that's on them? Why do I have to take responsibility for someone else's growth?