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Pope Francis has died

(www.reuters.com)
916 points phillipharris | 12 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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carlos-menezes ◴[] No.43749613[source]
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2025-04/pope-francis...

> According to Archbishop Diego Ravelli, Master of Apostolic Ceremonies, the late Pope Francis had requested that the funeral rites be simplified and focused on expressing the faith of the Church in the Risen Body of Christ.

Always struck me as a simple man and that likely contributed to people liking him more when compared to his predecessors. RIP.

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keepamovin ◴[] No.43749955[source]
I thought the film the Two Popes gave a good overview of his life and perspective.
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gortok ◴[] No.43750605[source]
It’s important to note that The Two Popes was a drama, and not a true factual story.

It fictionalizes and sensationalizes some details; and that’s ok because its purpose is to make you feel exactly the way you feel about it.

Pope Francis was a wonderful steward of Christianity and espoused the virtues that anyone would want to see in their religious leaders: humility, grace, an openness to listen and a strong voice against even prelates in his own church that are xenophobic or nationalistic. He wanted us to welcome all and to live as the bible said Jesus did.

The fear I have is that each swing of the pendulum goes in two directions. He was far more “liberal” than the conservative Catholic prelates of the USCCB, and I fear his actions — including rightfully limiting the Latin mass, will force the church to swing in the other direction and give in to the illiberal forces that divide us.

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ralfd ◴[] No.43750950[source]
> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass

Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

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gortok ◴[] No.43751065[source]
Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the local language was somehow less of a mass.

If you’re Catholic, suggesting that a mass spoken in one language over another is somehow "less" takes away from the most important idea of the Mass: reenacting Christ’s Last supper commandment and the institution of the Holy Eucharist for what amounts to word games.

This divisive description of the mass increased over the decades, to the point that it threatened to cause a schism. As such it was the Holy Father’s duty to resolve the issue.

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1. gambiting ◴[] No.43751277[source]
There are still groups(at least I'm aware of them in Poland, I've met people who are part of them) who believe exactly this, that the second Vatican Sobor was a mistake and the "real" mass is only the one conducted in Latin.
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2. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.43753030[source]
It seems unlikely that Jesus spoke Latin at the last supper.
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3. slowmovintarget ◴[] No.43753271[source]
Also unlikely that Jesus intended for the ceremony to be conducted at times other than the evening of his death (replacing Passover). Up for interpretation, I suppose.
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4. michaelsbradley ◴[] No.43753378[source]
You’re under the impression that’s relevant? How so? Asking out of genuine curiosity.
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5. michaelsbradley ◴[] No.43753409{3}[source]
As in just the one time? Or as a once per year replacement?
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6. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.43753696{3}[source]
My understanding is that the mass is intended to be a recreation or commemoration of that event. So why is speaking it in Latin important?
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7. slowmovintarget ◴[] No.43753788{4}[source]
Once per year. He commanded his disciples to "do this in remembrance of me."

There is no mention of how often, but given Jesus allergy to ritual as opposed to genuine acts of worship, it seems reasonable that this would not be a commonplace thing.

Again... interpretation.

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8. michaelsbradley ◴[] No.43754625{4}[source]
In the early centuries of Christianity, as it spread geographically, there developed distinct rites of worship that solidified and then were handed down to the present, retaining strong links to the spoken-written languages used to express them originally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_a...

Oversimplifying greatly, but in and from Western Europe we have the Latin Rite, and in/from the East we have the Byzantine (Greek) Rite. There are others, not of less importance, see the link above.

There’s quite a lot of history involved in all this. But in Western Christianity it was Latin that became predominant for public worship and knowledge transmission.

9. michaelsbradley ◴[] No.43754801{5}[source]
We can get context for how the early Christians understood it by looking to additional sources from that period, e.g. the Didache and the early Church Fathers.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/holy-eucharist-in-t...

10. aredox ◴[] No.43760290[source]
It was certainly not in Latin. It was either in Hebrew of in Greek.

The focus on latin is a pure nitpicking and virtue signaling from the Conservatives (the irony!).

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11. skissane ◴[] No.43760462{3}[source]
> It was certainly not in Latin. It was either in Hebrew of in Greek.

I think it was very likely mostly Aramaic, possibly with some Hebrew mixed in (certain set prayers, with Torah readings in Hebrew followed by extemporaneous Aramaic translation). By the 1st century, Jews had abandoned Hebrew as an everyday tongue, a situation which didn't change until Zionists revived it in the late 19th century (which caused great controversy, since the traditional Jewish belief was that Hebrew is a holy language which should be reserved for religious purposes only, a position still maintained by most non-Israeli ultra-Orthodox to this day.)

Putting aside any claims of supernatural linguistic abilities, Jesus of Nazareth would likely have been fluent in Aramaic (his native tongue), competent in using Hebrew for certain religious purposes (but not as a language of everyday life), possibly some limited ability in Greek (but probably not fluent), maybe a few words of Latin (but very unlikely to be fluent).

> The focus on latin is a pure nitpicking and virtue signaling from the Conservatives (the irony!).

The majority of TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) adherents care more about keeping the traditional Tridentine (pre-Vatican II) liturgy than about Latin in itself – Catholic priests are allowed to say the contemporary Mass in Latin (subject to certain conditions), but there is rather little demand for it.

12. owendlamb ◴[] No.43766629[source]
But we do have record that the cross' title was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

God certainly had a special plan for these languages: the language of God's Law, the language of human power, and the language of human wisdom. The presence of His name in all three languages left the situation unambiguous to whoever might have been in the area to read it. Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, hung on that cross. When pressed about it, Pilate would not amend those words.

In this way, though maybe unnecessary thanks to the Gift of Tongues the Holy Spirit later gave to His apostles, the sign stood as a kind of Rosetta Stone, which no one could misunderstand. It shows that history itself, along with all human matters, belong completely to Him, and at the same time it made those languages new by virtue of that single title, grounding them firmly in the Truth Himself.

Latin and Greek, themselves originally vernaculars, continue to hold a special place in their respective churches, both Catholic and Orthodox. Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, continues to be used in many Eastern churches as well, again Catholic and Orthodox both. All three constitute especially venerable traditions—and to this we may add Coptic, since Jesus spent his early years in Egypt; Slavonic, for its very writing system's role in the conversion of the Slavs; and a handful of others I am more or less ignorant of. With each one, by entering into the language, you enter the mind of those first converts, who themselves entered the Mind of Christ.

In the Latin Catholic Church (that is, the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, or however you want to name it) we call the Latin language a "sacramental"—the same sort of thing as holy water, something which conveys grace to those who use it with an openness to those graces.

Demons hate it because of its legal precision, by which, in the name of the same Christ named in Latin on the cross, they are driven out of people, things, and places, fulfilling Christ's own prediction that His followers would cast out demons.

By forming one's faith life around one of these languages, one can more clearly ask those basic human questions that Christ is the answer to, without having to deal with the centuries of semantic drift and overloading that are scattered about the minefields of our modern vernaculars. The vernacular, of course, is no impediment to personal prayer, but as more and more people are gathered in one place the confusion of Babel threatens to set in.

On the other hand, every little Latin grammatical lesson, every new piece of vocabulary learned, reveals new wonders and opens the door to the great body of literature that was composed in the single Mind of Christ.

But we had this, and in the 20th century we let it slip through our fingers, not knowing what we'd been given. The problem is not that we don't know Latin. The problem is that, in broad cultural strokes, even when we did, we didn't care.