Science Advances paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adt3718
For apes and gorillas we can communicate. We've taught them sign language so we know hands down in terms of language we beat them. But for dolphins and octopi, we just don't really know.
Edit, to add: years ago a lot of people kept pigeons in rooftop coops around NYC. As a kid there was an older guy near by who you'd see on his roof waving around a cloth that sort of directed the birds as they flew in a big flock. Now I'm imagining that but a flock of crows bringing back loot to some gangster on a rooftop.
Now they are arriving slightly before the hawks and other predators and scaring them off.
If you see crows randomly arrive, and look around, there is almost always a circling bird in the sky.
It's super cool.
> Did I not, then, as I grew out of infancy, come next to boyhood, or rather did it not come to me and succeed my infancy? My infancy did not go away (for where would it go?). It was simply no longer present; and I was no longer an infant who could not speak, but now a chattering boy. I remember this, and I have since observed how I learned to speak. My elders did not teach me words by rote, as they taught me my letters afterward. But I myself, when I was unable to communicate all I wished to say to whomever I wished by means of whimperings and grunts and various gestures of my limbs (which I used to reinforce my demands), I myself repeated the sounds already stored in my memory by the mind which thou, O my God, hadst given me. When they called some thing by name and pointed it out while they spoke, I saw it and realized that the thing they wished to indicate was called by the name they then uttered. And what they meant was made plain by the gestures of their bodies, by a kind of natural language, common to all nations, which expresses itself through changes of countenance, glances of the eye, gestures and intonations which indicate a disposition and attitude--either to seek or to possess, to reject or to avoid. So it was that by frequently hearing words, in different phrases, I gradually identified the objects which the words stood for and, having formed my mouth to repeat these signs, I was thereby able to express my will. Thus I exchanged with those about me the verbal signs by which we express our wishes and advanced deeper into the stormy fellowship of human life, depending all the while upon the authority of my parents and the behest of my elders.
(From the Confessions of St. Augustine)
Been careful not to yell or approach abruptly and they definitely learn to recognize our faces, since we can get pretty close to them now.
It might seem remarkable that they can do this in a structured setting like humans do, but the more I learn about animals… The less remarkable I think this kind of behaviour is.
And it genuinely takes a lot of time when dealing with reasonably complex animals.
It reminds me of the research on cinereous tits, where the researcher had to spend like half a year at a time to validate a given chant matches a given word.
Many people historically and presently see themselves as the pinnacle of a godly creation, so they put humans above everything and anything, meaning that most perspectives to validate or not are about how unique we are. It might be annoying or backwards but at least there are people out there still willing to chip at it, one study at a time.
Yesterday she did the same, but didn't want to use that exit when I opened the door, but went to another door and looked at me with a clear expectation that she wanted to use the smaller backyard instead.
That is a relatively advanced form of communication to me. She combined the "let me out" signal and indicated which backyard to use. The way she looked at me was also a form of communication.
So scientists were thinking "hmm, maybe perception of geometric regularity is a unique skill to homo sapiens?". It turned out that crows can tell a square from trapezoids, too.
Because of the ways the benefactors want us to think it X
It really doesn't matter as much as the hysteria around it. Maybe the hysteria is 0.0001% accurate and that's generous. This is true for any political tribe, politics and political messaging in general.
Anyone who's ever argued that you shouldn't feed crows because it interferes with nature hasn't figured out that crows already adopted to urban human-inhabited environments, and feeding them quality food (cat kibble is cheap and works) is very much a net positive. If you see crows with white feathers, that's malnutrition, and you should give them something good to eat.
I can imagine this working, but digging into it at the time, there was no validation it worked at all. I couldn't get videos of it working, or even a cogent response from the author.
One of the things people seem to miss, is that bring intelligent doesn't mean domesticated. Or that an animal domesticates well.
Crows can understand a great deal, but does that mean they care to do your bidding? Even for treats?
Take a look at the differences between cats and dogs. You can train cats, but often they barely care. Dogs are, however, far easier to train.
Likely a difference in external validation.
And after all, what is true value to a crow? City crows seem to have an easy time of it. I don't think they go hungry, and there is lots of free tasty food.
So why would they care?
The University of Tübingen is in Germany.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/feb/01/swedish-...
I once lived in territory of some ravens, and it was a deep pleasure to gradually become friends with one. It took maybe a year of consistent effort, but eventually he'd come hang out with me outdoors. I would say bits of Poe's "The Raven" to him, and when his turn came he'd respond with soft, friendly mutterings. He especially liked to visit when we'd grill and eat outdoors, as there was nothing he liked better than some some bone with bits of meat and gristle left on it.
And crows? Humans have been battling crows since the beginning of agriculture. It takes some serious effort to crow-proof everything on a farm.
Crows are the first that come and after some tasting, stuff their peaks with meat and leave. The fuckers sit on the top of the neighboring house and watch if I'm at home. If they see I'm roaming around they fly to the window and start marching. Marching means they walk up and down on the galvanised plate-covered ledge signaling me, that they want some treats.
If you ignore them for too long or don't have any leftover cheese or meat for them they come over, pull out the fresh plants from the ground and leave. :D
As a sibling indicated baboons can not distinguish these shapes easily. Additionally, rather than a binary "crows can recognize shapes" the study shows how well crows process the shapes. One of the graphs in the paper, but not the article shows that two different crows have a similarly hard time with the rhombus.
In other studies, this same test was applied to humans to find that it is a fairly innate skill rather than developed by doing geometry in school.
The book is a sequel, of sorts, to Children of Time and Children of Ruin, and they should be read in sequence.
All three books grapple with "what is intelligence?" by using approximately familiar devices to land definitions that might otherwise be too alien.
It's pretty cute how disappointed they can look when they realize you just threw a peanut.
Most people in active testable science have worldviews where they suspect many relationships about the world that have not been strongly validated. Einstein was not the first person to discuss how space and time seem inextricably related in a special way; pythagoras was not the first to figure out how to derive the third side of a right triangle; galileo was not the first to suggest a heliocentric worldview; etc etc. Demonstrating things that seem obvious or intuitive or that are already assumed and used practice is still immensely valuable. Communication is hard, and demonstrating things about the world without getting tangled up in the inherent unsuitability of language to precisely describe the world is incredibly, incredibly difficult. We are still validating knowledge that the ancients practiced on a daily basis. Galen certainly never bothered to persuade; only to inform.
It nearly makes me want to ban articles if the paper is available. The discussion inevitably sags.
Again cats are harder to train than dogs, and that's with treat enticement too. Yet they will certainly make a face when given lesser food.
Also, keep an eye out for one crow watching for you to appear with treats. Once you do, he'll call the rest of the tribe.
I noticed a ypunger crow doing this. Unclear if it was assigned the task as a junior, or did so for street cred.
Adults were busy at this time of year showing juveniles how to find food and such.
They are unable to derive consistent meaning from the structure of a sentence. They are incapable of understanding sentences, and that might be the thing that sets us apart. They might be able to understand some vague association between two or three words when put together but at most they perceive it as a bag of words.