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170 points bookofjoe | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.221s | source
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slibhb ◴[] No.43644865[source]
LLMs are statistical models trained on human-generated text. They aren't the perfectly logical "machine brains" that Asimov and others imagined.

The upshot of this is that LLMs are quite good at the stuff that he thinks only humans will be able to do. What they aren't so good at (yet) is really rigorous reasoning, exactly the opposite of what 20th century people assumed.

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Balgair[dead post] ◴[] No.43645899[source]
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n4r9 ◴[] No.43646621[source]
I've only read the first Foundation novel by Asimov. But what you write applies equally well to many other Golden Age authors e.g. Heinlein and Bradbury, plus slightly later writers like Clarke. I doubt there was much in the way of autism awareness or diagnosis at the time, but it wouldn't be surprising if any of these landed somewhere on the spectrum.

Alfred Bester's "The stars my destination" stands out as a shining counterpoint in this era. You don't get much character development like that in other works until the sixties imo.

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throwanem ◴[] No.43649293[source]
Heinlein doesn't develop his characters? Oh, come on. You can't have read him at all!
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n4r9 ◴[] No.43651479[source]
[The italics and punctuation suggest your comment is sarcastic, but I'm going to treat it as serious just in case.]

Yeah, I'd say characterisation is a weakness of his. I've read Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers, and Double Star. Heinlein does explore characters more than, say, Clark, but he doesn't go much for internal change or emotional growth. His male characters typically fall into one of two cartoonish camps: either supremely confident, talented, intelligent and independent (e.g. Jubal, Bernardo, Mannie, Bonforte...) or vaguely pathetic and stupid (e.g. moon men). His female characters are submissive, clumsily sexualised objects who contribute very little to the plot. There are a few partial exceptions - e.g. Lorenzo in Double Star and female pilots in Starship Troopers - but the general atmosphere is one of teenage boy wish fulfilment.

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throwanem ◴[] No.43653902[source]
Thank you for confirming, especially at such effort, when a simple "No, I haven't; I just spend too much time uncritically reading feminism Twitter," would have amply sufficed. There's an honesty to this response in spite of itself, and in spite of itself I respect that.
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n4r9 ◴[] No.43654286[source]
Not sure if it will help me saying this, but that's a disappointingly dismissive and avoidant response well below HN standards. I'm very willing to engage with any counter-arguments in good faith. I don't use Twitter (or Mastodon, or BlueSky, or TikTok, or Facebook, or Threads etc...), but I do enjoy discussing sci fi of different periods on Goodreads groups.
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throwanem ◴[] No.43655032[source]
It seems filthy rich of you to claim good faith at this time, but I have recently begun to gather that in some quarters lately, it is considered offensively unreasonable to expect working knowledge of any material as a prerequisite for participating competently in discussion thereof. So though your claim is facially false, I ironically can't fairly consider that it is other than honestly made. Your precepts are in any case your problem. Good luck with it, you Hacker News expert.
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n4r9 ◴[] No.43657705[source]
I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance.
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throwanem ◴[] No.43657794[source]
> I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance.

If you meant that honestly, you would already have found ample directions for further research, easily enough not to need asking. Everything you claim to want lies just a Google search away, on any of the various and I should hope fairly easily identifiable search terms I have mentioned. "It is not my job to educate you."

Or, rather, it would still not be my job even if to learn were what you really want here. You don't, of course. That's why you haven't bothered so much as trying a few searches that might turn up something you would have to pretend to have read. Much easier to try to make me look emotionally unstable - 'defy?' Really. - because you can't actually answer anything I've said and you know it. Good luck with that, too.

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n4r9 ◴[] No.43658041[source]
I've read the books, mulled them over, discussed them with others, and done some reading of what other critics have to say online. I've given my opinion and some of the reasoning behind it. If you want more of my reasoning I'm happy to give it. You have given nothing in response. It feels a lot like you've jumped to conclusions because my opinion is very different to yours. So you've immediately decided not to engage but are nevertheless hellbent on making me out to be uninformed or stupid.

We've clearly got off on the wrong foot here. I don't want to make out like I think Heinlein is crap. He had a lot of fantastic, creative ideas about science, technology, culture, sexuality and governance. He was extremely daring and sometimes quite subtle in the way he explored those ideas. But - in the novels I've read - his characters lack a certain depth and relatability. They express very little of the self-doubt, empathy, growth, and deep-seated motivations that are core to the human condition. So it goes also with Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury, and others. And it's fine that those weren't their strong suits. They had other strengths. And there were other writers like Bester, Dick, Le Guin, Zelazny, Herbert etc... who could fill the gaps.

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throwanem ◴[] No.43658422[source]
Herbert for better gender and emotional politics than Heinlein. Herbert! And to think I imagined there was nothing left you could say to surprise me.

Don't expect me to stop discussing what your behavior displays of your character, just because you've finally shown the modicum of rhetorical sense or tactical cunning required to minimally amend that behavior. Again, if you actually meant even a fraction of what you say, you would now be reading instead of still speaking. If it bothers you that you continue to indict yourself by your actions this way, consider acting differently.

Should you at any future point opt to develop a thesis in this area which is capable of supporting knowledgeable discussion, I confide it will find an audience in accord with its quality. In the meantime, please stop inviting me to participate in the project of recovering your totally unforced embarrassment.

Believe it or not by the look of things, I already have enough else to do today. Wiping your nose as you struggle and fail to learn from your vastly overprivileged young life's first encounter with entirely merited and obviously unmitigated contempt doesn't really make the list, at least not past the point at which it ceases to amuse, which I admit is now fast approaching.

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n4r9 ◴[] No.43659127[source]
In Dune there are female characters with their own desires and designs on the world, who go out and take what they want. There is profound loss, and personal transformation. There is coming to terms with intensely sad or painful circumstances. There is overcoming doubt, building resilience, and taking responsibility and control of one's destiny. These things were not really explored in what I've read of Heinlein.
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throwanem ◴[] No.43659187[source]
> These things were not really explored in what I've read of Heinlein.

I don't know how much further you expect me to need to boil down "read more" and still be able to take you seriously. How do you expect that, when you haven't even bothered trying to justify how you chose those four novels to represent forty years?

I see that 'seriously' very much describes how you like to regard yourself. You've insisted most thoroughly others must regard you likewise, regardless of what you show yourself anywhere near capable of actually rewarding or indeed even appreciating. Do you have a favorable impression of your efforts thus far? Have they had the results that you hoped?

We would now be having a different conversation if you had said anything to suggest to me it would be worth my trouble to continue in the attempt. I'd have enjoyed that conversation, I think; as most days here, I had hopes of learning something new. You've felt the need to spend the day doing this instead. If you don't like how that's working out, whom fairly may you blame?

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n4r9 ◴[] No.43659211[source]
At this point I'm mostly just intrigued to see whether you'll keep replying and whether you'll make any substantial points.
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1. throwanem ◴[] No.43661555[source]
And then it turns out that having taken bits and bites out of my entire mortal day, to pursue this pointless argument with you, was just what I needed even if nothing at all what I wanted. It put me in a state of mind where I could find some kind words to say to my family that I think some folks there may have been quite a bit, if in a small way, needing to hear for a while.

That's not even slightly to your credit, of course. But I can't fairly say you weren't involved, and I have to admit I genuinely appreciate this result, however inadvertent and I'm sure unimaginable on your part it may be. So, though I say it through gritted teeth, thank you for your time. If for absolutely nothing else whatsoever, for that at least I must express my genuine gratitude.

Intolerable though you've been throughout, and despite what I assume to have been your every intention, something good may yet come of your ill efforts. You deserve to know that. May it heap as many coals of fire on your head as your heart should prove small enough to deserve.