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194 points docmechanic | 15 comments | | HN request time: 1.391s | source | bottom
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mattdeboard ◴[] No.43656266[source]
Reinforcing my strongly held belief that what fundamentally sets humans apart isn't spoken language, or tools, or any of that, but rather the fact we write down what we know, then make those writings available to future generations to build on. We're a species distinguished from all others by our information-archival and -dissemination practices. We're an archivist species, a librarian species. Homo archivum. In my opinion.
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1. contrarian1234 ◴[] No.43657255[source]
By that metric Native Americans are basically animals.. which is problematic.

However arguably humans existed from tens of thousands of years and only really started to make huge technological leaps when writing existed. Prewriting culture is still quite fascinating and complex (ex: Homer or Olmec/Maya art) but it does seem to be stuck at a certain level.

I think Egyptian civilization provides a fascinating mid point where there is writing but it's not very accessible... And Egyptian civilization is slow to develop (it's also very weird they don't have their equivalent of Homer or Gilgamesh)

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2. igravious ◴[] No.43657301[source]
> (it's also very weird they don't have their equivalent of Homer or Gilgamesh)

i'm not sure if this is the case or not but if it is lack of evidence may not be evidence of a lack! they may have done and it may have not been transmitted to us

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3. glenstein ◴[] No.43657632[source]
>By that metric Native Americans are basically animals..

The Cherokee had an extremely well developed written tradition, so I don't think that inference would follow at all.

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4. earleybird ◴[] No.43657975[source]
From the early 1800's, created by a single person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_syllabary

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5. mattdeboard ◴[] No.43658476[source]
Cave drawings throughout the American southwest demonstrate Native Americans of antiquity were just as capable of expressing symbolic thought via a durable medium to express meaning to other humans as so-called modern humans.

I know I'm arguably moving the goalposts here from "writing stuff down for others to read" to "using symbols on a durable medium to express meaning to other humans." But that's a category of behavior that writing belongs to so I don't think it's logically inconsistent. :)

6. mattdeboard ◴[] No.43658502{3}[source]
Awesome. A truly impressive feat that, among all the various and sundry species populating the earth, is only achievable by a human. That is exactly my point... thank you! :)
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7. bobthepanda ◴[] No.43658684[source]
I don't think this really holds. we know, for example, that there were precolombian civilizations that wrote things down like the Maya and the Aztec, though much of it was destroyed during colonization.
8. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.43660217{4}[source]
But also not a part of the human experience among all the ancestors of the Cherokee people, or more or less all humans in the Americas, all the way back to whenever humans first arrived in the Americas (likely 25k-30k years ago, at least).
9. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.43660244[source]
There are dozens (maybe even hundreds) of human cultures that existed at the time Homer was writing, or when Gilgamesh was written, that also have no equivalent.

The idea that any roughly equivalent human culture will develop the same things is clearly wrong. Just look at the plough - for centuries or even millenia, humans outside of what is now China had ploughs but failed to gain the insight to improve it in the way it was improved in China. Once trade exposed them to the Chinese plough, it was more or less universally adopted within decades.

While multiple (re)invention may be common, it is not universal. Just because culture A manages to find is way to cultural/technological innovation doesn't imply that culture B will, even if the two cultures are very similar.

10. fsckboy ◴[] No.43661056[source]
>By that metric Native Americans are basically animals.. which is problematic.

just as it's not problematic to discover that bonobos talk to each other like Shakespeare, it would not be problematic to discover that humans are animals. keep your fingers off the scales (and, to mix a metaphor) let the scales fall from your eyes: it's science, follow the evidence to the truth. Don't be guided by what you want to hear, in either direction.

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11. Dylan16807 ◴[] No.43670285[source]
You're using a different definition of animal to be contrary. Don't do that.

And "problematic" here means it's racist in a dumb and obviously incorrect manner. We already have plenty of evidence against that idea.

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12. afiori ◴[] No.43670631[source]
Native Americans had rich oral traditions that would have served the same purpose
13. fsckboy ◴[] No.43685650{3}[source]
humans are animals. this entire topic is "what separates humans from animals--oh, less than we thought".

stop wrapping humanity in the cloak of personification, it's the first [animal] refuge of rats and weasels. also, stop accusing people of racism all the time, it makes me think you are a worse person, not a better one. studying hunter gatherers gives us a lot of important data, and they can't help their race, nor can the researchers, it's an immutable characteristic.

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14. Dylan16807 ◴[] No.43689272{4}[source]
> humans are animals. this entire topic is "what separates humans from animals--oh, less than we thought".

You're using two different definitions of "animal" in the same sentence here. That's only going to cause problems.

> also, stop accusing people of racism all the time, it makes me think you are a worse person, not a better one.

No person was accused of racism. It was a theoretical argument brought up and dismissed in the same sentence, as a rhetorical device to show a problem with a different argument.

> studying hunter gatherers gives us a lot of important data, and they can't help their race, nor can the researchers, it's an immutable characteristic.

But they are not fundamentally set apart and a different species from other humans. And the idea under discussion only works if major groups without writing are fundamentally set apart and a different species.

If the data showed those differences, it would not be racist. But we know those differences don't exist. Humans are all extremely similar.

So the only way someone would think they are fundamentally different is because some neuron misfired in their brain, or they got to that conclusion based on racist teachings or racist reasoning.

And it's more than 99% likely it's the latter. That's enough confidence for me to claim it's a racist idea.

And again, this is based on the actual data, not what anyone wants to be true.

15. contrarian1234 ◴[] No.43750987[source]
If they had a "national epic" of sorts then you'd expect it referenced everywhere. The Iliad is not important b/c it just a story that happened to be preserved. It's a foundational piece of literature for the whole region and people are making allusions to it everywhere

There are for instance Greek plays that are of the form you imagine. Where they're important, referenced, and no surviving copies exist