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Playing in the Creek

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346 points c1ccccc1 | 22 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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BrenBarn ◴[] No.43651969[source]
It's a nice article. In a way though it kind of bypasses what I see as the main takeaways.

It's not about AI development, it's about something mentioned earlier in the article: "make as much money as I can". The problems that we see with AI have little to do with AI "development", they have to do with AI marketing and promulgation. If the author had gone ahead and dammed the creek with a shovel, or blown off his hand, that would have been bad, but not that bad. Those kinds of mistakes are self-limiting because if you're doing something for the enjoyment or challenge of it, you won't do it at a scale that creates more enjoyment than you personally can experience. In the parable of the CEO and the fisherman, the fisherman stops at what he can tangibly appreciate.

If everyone working on and using AI were approaching it like damming a creek for fun, we would have no problems. The AI models we had might be powerful, but they would be funky and disjointed because people would be more interested in tinkering with them than making money from them. We see tons of posts on HN every day about remarkable things people do for the gusto. We'd see a bunch of posts about new AI models and people would talk about how cool they are and go on not using them in any load-bearing way.

As soon as people start trying to use anything, AI or not, to make as much money as possible, we have a problem.

The second missed takeaway is at the end. He says Anthropic is noticing the coquinas as if that means they're going to somehow self-regulate. But in most of the examples he gives, he wasn't stopped by his own realization, but by an external authority (like parents) telling him to stop. Most people are not as self-reflective as this author and won't care about "winning zero sum games against people who don't necessarily deserve to lose", let alone about coquinas. They need a parent to step in and take the shovel away.

As long as we keep treating "making as much money as you can" as some kind of exception to the principle of "you can't keep doing stuff until you break something", we'll have these problems, AI or not.

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1. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43652620[source]
> As soon as people start trying to use anything, AI or not, to make as much money as possible, we have a problem.

I noticed that, around the turn of the century, when "The Web" was suddenly all about the Benjamins.

It's sort of gone downhill, since.

For myself, I've retired, and putter around in my "software garden." I do make use of AI, to help me solve problems, and generate code starts, but I am into it for personal satisfaction.

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2. hobs ◴[] No.43653061[source]
Are you jealous or mad that they didn't do more for you? Neither is a good look really. What have you done for me lately?
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3. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.43653338[source]
I'm retired as well, dislike what we have for the internet these days.

In reflecting on my career I can say I got into it for the right reasons. That is, I liked programming — but also found out fairly quickly that not everyone could do it and so it could be a career path that would prove lucrative. And this in particular for someone who had no other likelihood, for example, of ever owning a home. I was probably not going to be able to afford graduate school (had barely paid for state college by working minimum wage jobs throughout college and over the summers) and regardless I was not the most studious person. (My degree was Education — I had expected a modest income as a career high school teacher).

But as I say, I enjoyed programming at first. And when it arrived, the web was just a giant BBS as far as I was concerned and so of course I liked it. But it is possible to find a thing that you really like can go to shit over the ensuing decades. (And for that matter, my duties as an engineer got shittier as well as the career "evolved". I had not originally signed up for code reviews, unit tests, scrum, etc. Oh well.)

Money as a pursuit made sense to me after I was in the field and saw that others around me were doing quite well — able as I say, to afford to buy a home — something I had assumed would always be out of reach for me (my single mother had always rented, I assumed I would as well — oh, I still had a modest college loan to pay off too). So I learned about 30-year home loans, learned about the real estate market in the Bay Area, learned also about RSUs, capital gains tax, 401Ks, index finds, etc.

But as is becoming a theme in this thread (?) at some point I was satisfied that I had done enough to secure a home, tools for my hobbies, and had raised three girls — paid for their college. I began to see the now burdensome career I was in as an albatross around my soul. The technology that I had once enjoyed, made my career on the back of, had gone sour.

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4. FollowingTheDao ◴[] No.43653433{3}[source]
It went sour for the same reason that you were "satisfied that I had done enough to secure a home, tools for my hobbies, and had raised three girls — paid for their college"; Money and selfishness. You were looking out for you and your little group.

You got yours. Now what?

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5. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.43653650{4}[source]
If you're trying to convince me that I was somehow part of the problem, it's not reaching me. I was as low(ly) as you can get in the "tech industry stack". While I still had some measure of agency as an engineer I added a crayon color picker to MacOS, added most of the PDF features people like in MacOS Preview. That was as much "driving the ship" as I was allowed — until I wasn't even allowed that.

I could have skipped sooner maybe?

Once I had kids though I found I had a higher tolerance for a job getting shittier, a lower tolerance for restarting in a new career. So I put up with a worsening job for them.

I quit the moment my last daughter left for college.

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6. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43653747{4}[source]
Sorry to hear that. Not our fault, and it won't make your life any better to be bitter about it. It certainly doesn't help you, in the least, to be attacking folks in a public professional forum.

You're also not the only one doing charity work.

Just sayin'.

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7. sepositus ◴[] No.43654094{6}[source]
Do you think this style of argumentation is constructive and beneficial for the broader good of society? I can't think of a single person I've met who would respond positively to being labeled a (partial) sociopath after being able to only express a couple of paragraphs of thought.
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8. chipsrafferty ◴[] No.43654108{5}[source]
I don't think they're blaming you per se, they're saying the reason you didnt enjoy it is because you did it for money.
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9. FollowingTheDao ◴[] No.43654429{7}[source]
Yes, I do, because I’m never going to change his mind, maybe I will, but probably not, but other people reading this can take sides and think about it in a non-direct way.

Jesus turned over tables when they were trying to profit inside the church. His movement seemed to turn out pretty good.

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10. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.43654541{6}[source]
Hmmm... Is it because I came to tolerate it for the paycheck that it sucked or is it possible it began to suck first?

I get it that money coming into the industry made the whole industry suck. Honestly, Apple was a much more fun to place to work at when there was no money to be made there (no more than a paycheck anyway). Others may disagree, but I found its success made it increasingly a shittier place to work. (Others though, as I say, may have enjoyed the wider reach the platform enjoyed with its success.)

11. sepositus ◴[] No.43654565{8}[source]
Fair enough, but I would be concerned about the people who think that making (offensive) psychiatric diagnoses over the internet is a good thing that should be promoted. In the best case, it only confirms people's biases and does nothing to move the needle towards unity rather than continued division.

> Jesus turned over tables when they were trying to profit inside the church. His movement seemed to turn out pretty good.

Applying this story to posting anonymous comments on an internet forum seems like a stretch. There are hardly any meaningful consequences for your decision to write in this way, whereas Jesus very much became a target after that demonstration.

12. ToucanLoucan ◴[] No.43654745{5}[source]
> added most of the PDF features people like in MacOS Preview.

I'm not religious, but for this alone you deserve a life of blessings and happiness. The fact that I never ever have to fuck around with Adobe PDF apps to juggle PDFs is one of the load-bearing things keeping me sane in an insane world.

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13. wulfstan ◴[] No.43655302{6}[source]
Yes. I used these features in Preview several times today. You have made my life easier on many occasions. For that, sir, I salute you.

May you enjoy your retirement tinkering in your software garden.

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14. dvaun ◴[] No.43655510{8}[source]
Have you considered socratic questioning and other forms of conversation, in order to affect more change?

See https://www.streetepistemology.com/ for content about this. It is possible to guide discussions in a healthy manner and with positive goals in mind.

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15. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43655597{6}[source]
I second [third?] this.

I can’t stand Adobe Reader, and use Preview, all the time.

16. saagarjha ◴[] No.43655910{8}[source]
Other people reading it will (hello) also are unlikely to take your side if you call random commenters here sociopaths.
17. ToucanLoucan ◴[] No.43655965{7}[source]
For tax season alone! I'm in and out of Preview constantly, looking at PDFs, sorting the pages out, flipping scans. Utterly indispensable software. It feels crazy that it just comes free with the OS.
18. babelfish ◴[] No.43657422{8}[source]
Have you tried following the dao, instead?
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19. ben_w ◴[] No.43659774{5}[source]
> While I still had some measure of agency as an engineer I added a crayon color picker to MacOS

Oh, that was you? One of the few bits of skeuomorphism I can still find in the OS. I wish we still had more of that.

20. pseudalopex ◴[] No.43660685{8}[source]
> other people reading this can take sides

Fewer people can read dead comments. And what others said.

21. FollowingTheDao ◴[] No.43663722{9}[source]
I am not trying to affect change. I am expressing myself.
22. FollowingTheDao ◴[] No.43663748{9}[source]
If you encounter a mother bear with her cubs in the woods she will attack you. Her natural response has no morality. I am the same, that is how you follow the Dao.

It is funny that people thing Daoists do not get angry and yet all of you suppress anger in some unnatural way to "get along" or to make sure you are not dwnvoted.