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    395 points pseudolus | 16 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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    dtnewman ◴[] No.43633873[source]
    > A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used.

    I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem.

    Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous issue. For many students, it's literally "let me paste the assignment into ChatGPT and see what it spits out, change a few words and submit that".

    I think the issue is that it's so tempting to lean on AI. I remember long nights struggling to implement complex data structures in CS classes. I'd work on something for an hour before I'd have an epiphany and figure out what was wrong. But that struggling was ultimately necessary to really learn the concepts. With AI, I can simply copy/paste my code and say "hey, what's wrong with this code?" and it'll often spot it (nevermind the fact that I can just ask ChatGPT "create a b-tree in C" and it'll do it). That's amazing in a sense, but also hurts the learning process.

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    bko ◴[] No.43634075[source]
    When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today.

    Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately.

    For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibly (most writing is done on computers), spell very well (spell check keeps us professional), reading a map to get around (GPS), etc

    Not that these aren't noble things or worth doing, but they won't impact your life too much if you're not interest in penmanship, spelling, or cartography.

    I believe LLMs are different (I am still stuck in the moral panic phase), but I think my children will have a different perspective (similar to how I feel about memorizing poetry and languages without garbage collection). So how do I answer my child when he asks "Why should I learn to do X if I can just ask an LLM and it will do it better than me"

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    kibwen ◴[] No.43634268[source]
    The irreducible answer to "why should I" is that it makes you ever-more-increasingly reliant on a teetering tower of fragile and interdependent supply chains furnished by for-profit companies who are all too eager to rake you over the coals to fulfill basic cognitive functions.

    Like, Socrates may have been against writing because he thought it made your memory weak, but at least I, an individual, am perfectly capable of manufacturing my own writing implements with a modest amount of manual labor and abundantly-available resources (carving into wood, burning wood into charcoal to write on stone, etc.). But I ain't perfectly capable of doing the same to manufacture an integrated circuit, let alone a digital calculator, let alone a GPU, let alone an LLM. Anyone who delegates their thought to a corporation is permanently hitching their fundamental ability to think to this wagon.

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    hackyhacky ◴[] No.43634369[source]
    > The irreducible answer to "why should I" is that it makes you ever-more-increasingly reliant on a teetering tower of fragile and interdependent supply chains furnished by for-profit companies who are all too eager to rake you over the coals to fulfill basic cognitive functions.

    Yes, but that horse has long ago left the barn.

    I don't know how to grow crops, build a house, tend livestock, make clothes, weld metal, build a car, build a toaster, design a transistor, make an ASIC, or write an OS. I do know how to write a web site. But if I cede that skill to an automated process, then that is the feather that will break the camel's back?

    The history of civilization is the history of specialization. No one can re-build all the tools they rely on from scratch. We either let other people specialize, or we let machines specialize. LLMs are one more step in the latter.

    The Luddites were right: the machinery in cotton mills was a direct threat to their livelihood, just as LLMs are now to us. But society marches on, textile work has been largely outsourced to machines, and the descendants of the Luddites are doctors and lawyers (and coders). 50 years from new the career of a "coder" will evoke the same historical quaintness as does "switchboard operator" or "wainwright."

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    ryandrake ◴[] No.43634413[source]
    This reply brings to mind the well-known Heinlein quote:

        A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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    1. crooked-v ◴[] No.43635434[source]
    That's a quote that sounds great until, say, that self-built building by somebody who's neither engineer nor architect at best turns out to have some intractible design flaw and at worst collapses and kills people.

    It's also a quote from a character who's literally immortal and so has all the time in the world to learn things, which really undermines the premise.

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    2. elcritch ◴[] No.43639165[source]
    I sort of view that list as table stakes for a well rounded capable person.. Well barring the invasion bit. Then again, being familiar with guns and or other forms of self defense is valuable.

    I think most farmers would be somewhat capable on most of that list. Equations for farm production. Programming tractor equipment. Setting bones. Giving and taking orders. Building houses and barns.

    Building a single story building isn’t that difficult, but time consuming. Especially nowadays with YouTube videos and pre-planned plans.

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    3. lisper ◴[] No.43639677[source]
    > pre-planned plans

    Isn't that cheating? Shouldn't a properly self-reliant human be able to come up with the plans too?

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    4. codedokode ◴[] No.43639767[source]
    > self-built building by somebody who's neither engineer nor architect

    That is exactly how our ancestors built houses. Also a traditional wooden house doesn't look complicated.

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    5. dullcrisp ◴[] No.43639795[source]
    And what happened to them, I wonder?
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    6. elliotec ◴[] No.43639844{3}[source]
    Well, they reproduced so we could exist now. Definition of ancestors.
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    7. diroussel ◴[] No.43640002{3}[source]
    Learning from others doesn’t mean you are not learning.
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    8. antasvara ◴[] No.43640003[source]
    I'm not saying that our ancestors were wrong. Hell, I live in a house that was originally built under similar conditions.

    That being said, buildings collapse a lot less frequently these days. House fires happen at a lower rate. Insulation was either nonexistent or present in much lower quantities.

    I guess the point I'm making is that the lesson here shouldn't be "we used to make our houses, why don't we go back to that?" It also shouldn't be "we should leave every task to a specialist."

    Know how to maintain and fix the things around your house that are broken. You don't need a plumber to replace the flush valve on your toilet. But maybe don't try to replace a load-bearing joist in your house unless you know what you're doing? The people building their own homes weren't engineers, but they had a lot more carpentry experience than (I assume) you and I.

    9. dullcrisp ◴[] No.43640196{4}[source]
    That’s…not what I asked. Y’all need to recognize that Darwinism was intended as an explanatory theory, not as an ethos. And it’s not how we judge building practices.
    10. motorest ◴[] No.43640530[source]
    > That is exactly how our ancestors built houses. Also a traditional wooden house doesn't look complicated.

    The only homes built by our ancestors that you see are those that didn't collapsed and killed whoever was inside, burned down, were too unstable to live in, were too much of a burden to maintain and keep around, etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

    11. CalRobert ◴[] No.43640964[source]
    Honestly having gone through the self build process for a house it’s not that hard if you keep it simple. Habitat for humanity has some good learning material
    12. salomonk_mur ◴[] No.43641044{4}[source]
    Ask the LLM to create plans and step by step guides then!
    13. lukan ◴[] No.43641552[source]
    I would like to replay with another quote by another immortal(or long lived) character, Professor „Reg“ Chronotis from Douglas Adams:

    "That I lived so much longer, just means, that I forgot much more, not that I know much more."

    Memory might have a limited capacity, but of course, I doubt most humans use that capacity, or well, for useful things. I know I have plenty of useless knowledge ..

    14. sethammons ◴[] No.43642026{3}[source]
    To bake a cake from scratch, first, you must create the universe
    15. Ekaros ◴[] No.43642377[source]
    >Law § 229 of Hammurabi's Code

    >If a house builder built a house for a man but did not secure/fortify his work so that the house he built collapsed and caused the death of the house owner, that house builder will be executed.

    If even professionals did get it wrong so often that there had to be law for it... Yeah, maybe it is not that simple.

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    16. codedokode ◴[] No.43646900{3}[source]
    In a village most houses were built by their owners. I am not talking here about nicely decorated brick buildings in a city: they were obviously designed and built by professionals.