US accidentally sent Maryland father to Salvadorian prison, can't get him back

Accidents like this are required in order to demonstrate the scale of the "will" behind the power.

This should be a un-ignorable reminder of the value of due process. Better a guilty person go free than an innocent person sent to their long, slow, undignified death.

>This should be a un-ignorable reminder of the value of due process

I agree with you.

Now explain how can we scale the due process to deport everyone that entered here illegally in a reasonable timeframe. 15-30 million hearings will take a century to be resolved.

The system is not designed for such massive load in mind.

If it's so important to get done quickly, hire more people to do it. Move resources to solve the most pressing problems first.

Otherwise let law/justice take as long as law/justice takes.

>Otherwise let law/justice take as long as law/justice takes.

Once again I agree with you. Let's deport them first and make remote immigration courts in every US embassy. This way they have remedy for false positives, and let law/justice take as long as law/justice takes

And how long will it take to process the illegal Immigration of all the Europeans that entered the American continent 300 years ago..?

We were conquerors. Vae Victis.

> 15-30 million hearings

What level of false positives are you willing to tolerate - US nationals wrongly deported?

How many fatalities (including suicides) are you willing to tolerate in this process?

(fairly easy to imagine hypothetical situation: lawful US national gun owner with Hispanic name is shopped to immigration by his neighbours. ICE come to his house in the middle of the night to deprive him of his rights. Is he (a) legally (b) morally entitled to open fire on them? If not, what do all the 2nd amendment tyranny resistors mean? If so, isn't this going to be a huge mess?)

But how do you know who to deport without due process? Papers please?

(you answered above: Papers Please it is.)

He shows his id and they say sorry to disturb you sir.

The land of the free!

The US has mandatory national ID for everyone now?

(edit: at the moment the only possible document would be a US passport, because a driving license doesn't prove nationality, so the 50% of Americans who don't have passports are SOL)

Sending them to a prison you don't return from isn't a deportation.

It sure would have helped if we'd hired those additional immigration judges that the bipartisan bill would have funded... before Trump shot it down to deny Biden a political point.

And being forcibly removed from the US is exactly the sort of power that due process is intended to limit, by Constitutional design for all people in the US (not just citizens).

>Is he (a) legally (b) morally entitled to open fire on them?

Given how these "arrests" seem to be done by plainclothes individuals who don't identify themselves?

Yes. Legally (depending on state) yes, and morally always.

(Arrests in quotations because anyone arrested has rights, something that seems to be skipped over here)

Username checks out.

So a simple fake ID is all you would need to thwart immigration or cops? What happens if you don't have your ID on you? What if you legitimately lost your ID and are still waiting for a replacement?

What paperwork do you have that confirms you are a citizen right now? Especially since birthright citizenship is now being thrown out the window.

What is wrong with papers please?

> Better a guilty person go free than an innocent person sent to their long, slow, undignified death.

This is a scale thing though right? You'll have some false convictions if you want a justice system. Nothing is perfect, breakage inevitable.

Nobody wants to be the victim of a miscarriage of justice themselves, but everyone wants crime to be dealt with effectively. The trade offs are real and I suspect the average person has an acceptable non-zero rate in the back of their mind

Yes, as you said, the price of any justice system is a percentage of results that are wrong. I think the checks and balances that have been developed over the last century or two have gotten to a satisfactory level.

Such that wilfully bypassing parts of it to support a political agenda is nothing less than dictatorial.

"Sir we need your papers to resolve your claim you were wrongly deported. What? I'm sorry we deported you without your papers. That's your problem. If you can't get your papers your SOL." Nevermind they are deporting folks to third party PRISONS.

One of the fundamental tenets of the US legal system (and, at one time, its culture) is that rights like due process are more important than helping facilitate the government's will at scale.

The one place this has been debased and eroded has been NatSec, and that's part of why the government wants to use that justification for its immigration enforcement.

Just scale the system as needed.

If the idea is that we are deporting people that are here illegally, it shouldn't be controversial to require some degree of evidence and a brief examination of that evidence by someone not immediately connected to gathering it, and some kind of oversight structure.

It's an affront to the values America was founded on, and an insult to the Allies who died fighting the Nazis to stop behavior like this

And that's how we see the USA devolve into a third world shithole. In a proper system the cops should serve and fear the populace. In third world shiteholes, people fear the cops. I should be asking the government why you need any data at all from me? They need to give me a good reason to invade my privacy and I should be able to say fuck off if the reason is not sufficient. In fact I should be able to ask the cop for his id, for him to unlock his phone for him to give away his passwords, for me to strip search him.

Nothing wrong with it. In fact I should be able to see the papers of the ICE agent, to unlock his phone, to strip search him and detain him if necessary until I find he isn't a terrorist; and if found to be a threat, neutralize him by whatever means necessary. Why not, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't believe in special rights for certain groups. If he can search me, I can search him too.

Are you suggesting that this needs to be industrialized?

They said there were how many tens of thousands of these gang members? And these are the first, highest priority ones they choose to ship out? If their highest priority test cases are this crappy/low priority/not actual criminals, imagine when they get past the first ten thousand.

Convict employers of workers not allowed to work legally and people will self deport. Oh but that would convict the wrong sort of criminal. We don't go after the criminals that exploit an underclass, that hire illegals so they can avoid paying into social security, that hire illegals so they can pay under required wages, that hire illegals so that they can exploit them all kinds of ways. Instead you propose we deny due process to gay barbers and send them to overseas concentration camps as step one (ignoring the administration can't even fill the first batch of a few hundred out of tens of thousands of claimed 'gangbangers' with actual criminals).

"You'll have some false convictions if you want a justice system. Nothing is perfect, breakage inevitable."

Perhaps this is an assumption you are making which is not true.

> Now explain how can we scale the due process to deport everyone that entered here illegally in a reasonable timeframe.

No - you explain why you need to do this within any timeframe

This is not rational or intellectually honest - not the discourse I expect on hn

> We were conquerors

Stolen valor

If you don't know the connotations of the most basic idioms of history, perhaps you should move on to another thread.

With most of them being sent to a totally unrelated country, to boot.

Papers please, citizen.

Guilty people go free all the time, as long as they have enough money. We live with the guilty people free.

The least the system could do is more to guarantee the innocent person being free too.

A good place to start would be to not abruptly fire hundreds of deportation judges and staff. It's absurd to claim that this administration is actually trying to solve a problem, their actions clearly show that they are not. These deportation circus events are about terrorizing people and make some alt-right scumbags on the internet happy.

During the Cold War, we used to decry the idea of a “Papers, please” society where citizens are constantly confronted by government agents and everyone has to carry ID constantly or risk being mistreated.

One reason is that things like this happen, where every time is a chance for someone to be hurt, killed, or deported in a country where it is not uncommon for officers to beat or shoot people for perceived non-compliance:

> “I was born in Chicago, Illinois, and am a United States citizen,” Noriega said in his statement, adding that on Jan. 31, after buying pizza in Berwyn he was surrounded by ICE agents and arrested. Officers took away his wallet, which had his ID and Social Security card. “They then handcuffed me and pushed me into a white van where other people were handcuffed as well.”

https://chicago.suntimes.com/immigration/2025/03/14/us-citiz...

> Jensy Machado, who says he voted for President Donald Trump, told Telemundo 44 that on March 5, ICE agents blocked in his pickup truck not far from his Manassas home as he headed to work with two other men. He said the agents initially refused to let him show his REAL ID-compliant Virginia driver’s license, proof of his lawful status in the U.S.

> “They didn’t ask me for any ID,” he said. “I was telling the officer if I can give an ID, but he said to just keep my hands up and not moving. And then after that, he told me to get out of the car and then he put the handcuffs on me. And then he went to me and said how did I get into this country and if I was waiting for court or do I have any case? And I told him I was an American citizen, and he looked at his other partner, like, you know, smiling, like saying, ‘Can you believe this guy?’ Because he asked the other guy, ‘Do you believe him?’”

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/president-trump-politics/...

I regret to inform you, you have committed a crime and are being deported. :(

What's that you say? You have not committed a crime? Unfortunately, our records indicate that you have. Bummer! :\

You're an American Citizen? Why, that changes things! Hard to tell lookin at ya ;). But unfortunately we don't have the time or resources to make a positive determination about that now, so you'll have to wait in Venezuela for as long as it takes while the law/justice sorts this out.

Yes, I understand you claim you've done nothing wrong, but you've got to understand, people voted to get rid of "people like you", and that's the president's mandate. So in the end it may turn out that you're innocent, but for the next 4 years please enjoy this Venezuelan gulag. It's your patriotic duty.

About 50% of extant drivers licenses are not REAL-ID compliant.

Too bad.

"We don't have the resources to give that many people their full legal rights" should not be followed by "so we will deny them their rights." The government could massively expand the number of immigration courts or otherwise massively increase resourcing that goes into processing these cases. Otherwise they can get fucked. Legal rights make the job of law enforcement more difficult. That's a good thing.

My driver's license does not say that I am a US citizen anywhere on it as far as I can tell.

I don't carry my passport or birth certificate with me in public.