Most active commenters
  • joshstrange(5)
  • lxgr(5)
  • jeffhuys(3)

←back to thread

223 points stusmall | 47 comments | | HN request time: 0.859s | source | bottom
1. joshstrange ◴[] No.43506331[source]
So it's lightning all over again? Lightning was better than micro-usb, then USB-C came out and was even better and people get pissy at Apple for creating something better than the standard (and donating some of that back to the standard).

I know this will not be popular here but I really do not like the EU's most recent round of "no, you have to open up this feature".

replies(7): >>43506363 #>>43506414 #>>43506475 #>>43506639 #>>43506728 #>>43506765 #>>43507121 #
2. meibo ◴[] No.43506363[source]
...what use is "donating" back to the standard if you don't adopt the standard, practically preventing its adoption through your position in the market?
replies(1): >>43506417 #
3. fire_lake ◴[] No.43506414[source]
Lightning is still better than USB C in terms of physical connector design (Lightning puts the male part on the more easily replaced cable side). Annoying that it’s not a strict improvement being imposed.
replies(5): >>43506666 #>>43506730 #>>43506932 #>>43506942 #>>43509029 #
4. jeffhuys ◴[] No.43506417[source]
It wasn't really prevented, though, right? Apple was late to the game, yes, but that by definition means that its adoption was already well on its way; most of my non-Apple acquaintances were mocking me for having a non-usb-c phone (such an important issue!)...
replies(2): >>43506747 #>>43507527 #
5. fransje26 ◴[] No.43506475[source]
> I know this will not be popular here but I really do not like the EU's most recent round of "no, you have to open up this feature".

The EU did not ask Apple to open up AWDL to competitors, they asked Apple to comply with the Wi-Fi Aware 4.0 standard.

replies(1): >>43506802 #
6. lxgr ◴[] No.43506639[source]
I absolutely love it. USB-C is easily among my top 3 changes for the better on iPhones in the last 10 years.

If "Wi-Fi Aware" (almost as ridiculous a name as "Bluetooth Low Energy", but that's a different topic) ends up allowing Android to iOS file transfers without any third-party apps or network connectivity – like feature phones could, 20 years ago – that'll make the top three too.

replies(1): >>43506699 #
7. lxgr ◴[] No.43506666[source]
At least as far as I can tell, this seems to be a solved problem. USB-C ports on iPhones are holding up just fine.

I'll take a 1% higher chance of a port wearing out over a 100% chance of needing to always carry two cables and not being able to share accessories with Android users any day.

replies(1): >>43507218 #
8. joshstrange ◴[] No.43506699[source]
Apple was bringing USB-C to their entire line well before the EU "mandated" it. They were one of the first to put it on their laptops.
replies(2): >>43506722 #>>43537689 #
9. lxgr ◴[] No.43506722{3}[source]
Yes, and they even co-developed the standard to my knowledge.

Still they were stubbornly refusing to bring it to their phones, which are their most popular product line by far, until the EU forced their hand.

replies(2): >>43507011 #>>43510320 #
10. pjc50 ◴[] No.43506728[source]
Lightning is proprietary and incurs high per-cable license fees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209924
11. luma ◴[] No.43506730[source]
The male part isn't necessarily the key here, the idea is that you put a softer alloy and/or any sprung contacts onto the wear side such that springs and contacts will wear on the replaceable bits. This is the key problem micro USB got wrong, and it's also what Lightning gets wrong (although I'd agree that it was loads better than micro USB).
12. lxgr ◴[] No.43506747{3}[source]
> mocking me for having a non-usb-c phone (such an important issue!)...

It really isn't that irrelevant in a world in which being able to charge a phone can mean the difference between being able to get on a flight/train etc. or missing it.

Apple switching to USB-C has doubled (or more, based on the country) the odds of finding somebody with a compatible cable and power bank in a pinch.

replies(1): >>43547184 #
13. OptionX ◴[] No.43506765[source]
Apple said it didn't ship chargers with their 1k+ phones in order to reduce waste right?

Then having the EU force usbc for the same reason shouldn't be a problem.

14. joshuaturner ◴[] No.43506802[source]
"Asked" might not be the correct word here, "demanded" is more fitting.

I'm pretty torn, and I know this conversation has been beaten to death on HN, and I have nothing new or novel to contribute to it, but even though this pushes Apple in a direction I'd personally like to see them move - it just feels like regulatory overreach.

replies(3): >>43506880 #>>43509064 #>>43510337 #
15. carlhjerpe ◴[] No.43506880{3}[source]
In Europe we like our regulators to step in and force megacorporations to do the right thing every now and then.

What makes this overreaching? We already regulate RF heavily since it's a shared space that would all go to shit if everyone could roll their own incompatible thing

replies(1): >>43509261 #
16. kaibee ◴[] No.43506932[source]
> Lightning is still better than USB C in terms of physical connector design (Lightning puts the male part on the more easily replaced cable side).

Yeah, basically just repeating what luma said but you have this backwards. USB-C does have the female part on the cable side. Its just also enclosed in a metal cover for protection.

17. carlhjerpe ◴[] No.43506942[source]
So let me get this straight, the male part which is the most durable one is on the cable side on lightning while on USB-C the durable part is in the phone and the easily ruined female pins side is on the cable?

You can keep tooting the Apple horn, Lightning was better than micro USB but saying it's better than USB-C is incorrect on every measureable point. Lightning is dead, long live USB-C!

replies(3): >>43507861 #>>43509802 #>>43544760 #
18. joshstrange ◴[] No.43507011{4}[source]
You say "refusing to bring it to their phones", I say they were cautious about changing the port for the second time ever. I'd bet my retirement fund that Apple was going to bring USB-C to the iPhone that year already or at most 1 year later. It was slowly working its way down the line and I understand them being most hesitant about touching their golden goose.

But I understand your viewpoint and, again, I love USB-C (and my iPhone). My biases are absolutely playing into my viewpoint on this. I just don't think they were dragging their feet due to wanting to make more from MFI/Lightning as some suggested, it was mostly just being slow to change something that would annoy people (and the change did annoy many people, even though I don't think they should have been annoyed).

replies(3): >>43507049 #>>43507268 #>>43508145 #
19. lxgr ◴[] No.43507049{5}[source]
The longer they waited, the more (now obsolete) Lightning accessories were produced and sold as a result, no?
replies(2): >>43507280 #>>43508712 #
20. beeflet ◴[] No.43507121[source]
lightning was worse by nature of being proprietary
21. literalAardvark ◴[] No.43507218{3}[source]
The port connector is more reliable on USB-C.

The fine springy wiry bits that are impossible to clean and easy to damage are on the cable, which is a massive improvement. See: the super common broken Ethernet ports.

replies(1): >>43508956 #
22. 3D30497420 ◴[] No.43507268{5}[source]
Wasn't Apple super "courageous" when they killed the headphone jack?

I tend to view Apple's actions (and those of any company really) first through the lens of their own self-interest. Killing the headphone jack, which was an open standard, benefited wireless headphones. And, unsurprisingly, Apple's proprietary integration with Airpods help make them the best wireless headphone choice.

While I don't wholly disagree that Apple would have eventually switched to USB-C, I doubt they were slow to migrate out of an abundance of caution. Apple is a huge fan of lock-in, and never gives in to open standards easily.

replies(1): >>43508966 #
23. joshstrange ◴[] No.43507280{6}[source]
We could spend all day debating this back and forth ("What about all the lightning devices that got thrown out due to the new iPhone" - A somewhat silly argument but...) but I think we probably need to just agree to disagree. I absolutely disagree with Apple on a number of things but there is a lot of nuance here IMHO and teasing it out is well-trodden ground.
24. dspillett ◴[] No.43507527{3}[source]
> non-Apple acquaintances were mocking me for having a non-usb-c phone

I've not mocked an Apple user purely for having a non-standard port on their device, though I have more than once mocked the arrogance of an Apple user being put out because when they were wanting to borrow a charger/battery/cable I only had standard parts, those needed to support my devices, in my kit.

replies(1): >>43547228 #
25. mschuster91 ◴[] No.43507861{3}[source]
> while on USB-C the durable part is in the phone

the problem is, it can snap or be sheared off under unfortunate circumstances - say, someone laying their phone on their belly in bed, putting strain on the connector, a chonky cat deciding to jump down right onto the charger cable while the phone is plugged in, or someone dropping their phone while it's attached to a power bank.

With Lightning, it's a matter of removing the broken connector of the cable and that's it. With USB-C, you gotta replace the socket, tough luck on that given that these things generally don't come as single spare parts.

(IMHO, that is the next thing the EU should tackle - parts that often need to be replaced such as sockets and buttons should be mandated to be on a dedicated flex cable that can be easily replaced)

replies(1): >>43508589 #
26. MaKey ◴[] No.43508145{5}[source]
While Apple might have switched to USB-C on their own, they would have done so using propriety cables again. Thankfully the EU thwarted those plans.
replies(1): >>43508735 #
27. yisonPylkita ◴[] No.43508589{4}[source]
Port replacement on recent MacBooks is quite easy to do since it is a separate part connected to internal port. I wish more laptop manufacturers followed Apple’s steps
replies(1): >>43517153 #
28. Uvix ◴[] No.43508712{6}[source]
The longer they waited the longer we could use our existing Lightning accessories we’ve had for years that are now trash and often don’t have good replacements (e.g. docks).
29. joshstrange ◴[] No.43508735{6}[source]
Citation needed.

There is quite literally no evidence for this theory and mountains of evidence that USB-C is what they were always going to switch to. They had already switched checks note almost every other device they make to USB-C. The few that weren't USB-C at the launch of the iPhone 15 have been moved since then (specifically keyboard and mouse). I'm not sure if there are any Lightning devices left at this point.

replies(1): >>43512103 #
30. emchammer ◴[] No.43508956{4}[source]
For those of us who used to fix PCBs and wire breadboards, it’s nice to see the traces are still there, like knowing where your food comes from, even if any hope of an analog baseband project is long past. Lightning is one of Apple’s hits.
replies(1): >>43513476 #
31. chuckadams ◴[] No.43508966{6}[source]
Apple did switch to USB-C on the iPad, as Lightning was showing its age both in max power draw and data rate. Putting it on phones was inevitable at that point.

I’m not a huge fan of the EU government making specific demands of specific companies to adopt specific technologies, but this is Wi-Fi and telecom tech has a long history of adoption through legislation. So it’s not at all unprecedented and is probably the lesser evil in this case.

replies(1): >>43510290 #
32. chuckadams ◴[] No.43509029[source]
Lightning’s form factor is nice, but there are still a few issues with it. Look at any Lightning cable you’ve used for a few years and you’ll probably notice one of the contacts is darker than the others. That’s from arcing every time you plug it in, and that just cannot be a good thing.

The springs being on the socket is also not a great feature of Lightning, though usually the device itself has a shorter lifetime than the socket.

33. connicpu ◴[] No.43509064{3}[source]
Apple isn't technically forced to do this, they're an American company. They could instead withdraw entirely from the EU market and then they don't have to follow any EU laws. Of course, Apple will never do that because selling their phones in the EU makes _way_ more money than complying with the regulations will cost them.
34. joshuaturner ◴[] No.43509261{4}[source]
The "right thing" is, of course, subjective, but you're completely correct in the wider point. This is something European elected officials have enacted; they were voted into office _by_ Europeans, and if Apple wants to sell their products there, they have to abide by the rules passed there. I completely agree with that. People have the right to decide how companies behave in their countries/regions.

I just personally don't like the idea of governments dictating product decisions when no harm or risk is involved. If Apple wants to sell a product without a feature, it's my belief that they should be able to do that. This is doubly true when Apple developed and patented the feature they're being forced to drop in favor of an implementation they would rather not adopt.

35. thowawatp302 ◴[] No.43509802{3}[source]
It’s really not, I’ve had disproportionately more USB-C ports go dodgy because there was repeated tangential force on the cable plug than I had with lightning
36. ryao ◴[] No.43510290{7}[source]
They had usb 3.0 speeds over lightning on some models (e.g. the iPad Pro), but they kept introducing models that were usb 2.0 speed only for no apparent reason other than cost savings on the rest.
replies(1): >>43510419 #
37. ryao ◴[] No.43510320{4}[source]
Not quite. Apple could have removed the port entirely as a form of malicious compliance. They would have been in compliance with EU regulations without putting USB-C on their phones.

A second option would have been to make lightning a data only port that would not charge phones.

In either case, the reactions to “in order to comply with EU regulations, wired charging capability has been removed from iPhones sold in the EU” would have been hilarious.

38. klabb3 ◴[] No.43510337{3}[source]
Were you also against the FCC implementing local number portability after Verizon etc refused to hand over your number to a different provider?

The point is that capital incentives alone do not drive interop, and when interop is low, you get stagnating innovation and stifling competition, which leads to customer choice being limited and high prices during the value extraction phase. Just look at the VC world - competition with better product is for losers, all that matters is dominance and ”market share”.

Corporations aren’t alive, they can’t exercise freedoms, they move wherever their incentives dictate. Good regulations like DMA is a tool to make these entities step out of local optima they’re stuck in. (It even helps the affected companies, long term)

39. int_19h ◴[] No.43510419{8}[source]
And they still do it with USB-C. iPhone 16 and 16 Plus are restricted to USB 2.0 speeds; you have to shell out for 16 Pro or 16 Pro Max to get USB 3.0.

I don't think it's about cost savings, even. It's just a way to differentiate the products, Apple-style.

replies(1): >>43516969 #
40. MaKey ◴[] No.43512103{7}[source]
> There is quite literally no evidence for this theory [...]

There is: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/02/10/apple-planning-to-limit...

Apple was then told by the EU commission to abandon those plans: https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/news/Ansage-der-EU-Kommi...

41. literalAardvark ◴[] No.43513476{5}[source]
Yeah, let's make more things the wrong way for the nostalgic aesthetic.

I'm old enough to have done that, and to really miss the old world, but an improvement is an improvement.

None of the stuff I grew up with is "hackable" anymore. None of the design constraints of small, sleek, performant, high battery life and secure are amenable to that.

Even (production) Linux has stopped being a hacker's paradise and is tightening the rope.

And that's what the iPhone is: a production phone.

You want some cool toys? Get Arduinos, hacker laptops, RPis, Arch.

It's all still out there, but not every device needs to have its guts out.

That being said I will always miss SoftIce, being able to look stuff up in memory, being able to look stuff up in network traffic... alas, it's gone, and the truth is we're better off for it.

42. realityking ◴[] No.43516969{9}[source]
Even better, the iPhone 16e has DisplayPort support on the USB-C port. Even the necessary pins are blank. So we have at least three different USB-C capability levels on iPhones now.
43. mschuster91 ◴[] No.43517153{5}[source]
Yeah, and so it is on many laptops I've encountered as well. But unfortunately, almost no phones and tablets have that, or it's a ridiculously populated sideboard with matching prices...
44. gessha ◴[] No.43537689{3}[source]
The only thing they had with USB-C were the tablets. Literally everything else came out after the mandate. Apple also didn't communicate any intent on switching their connectors to USB-C.
45. CrimsonRain ◴[] No.43544760{3}[source]
The physical lightning port and connector are far superior than any USB-C. It is not even a contest.

The only thing usbc has going for it is wide usage.

Lightning can do usb3 things if designed for it. So software side is not an issue between the two.

46. jeffhuys ◴[] No.43547184{4}[source]
Right, I get the usefulness. Absolutely. But would you just randomly mock a person for not having a USB-C connection? They just saw my phone, I didn't even ask for a charger.

Besides, I always carry a collection of cables, even for those who mock me.

47. jeffhuys ◴[] No.43547228{4}[source]
Yeah, that's arrogance. I wish people were less simple-minded and throw everyone under a label; multiple times I've gotten the comment (irl) in the vein of "you actually know a lot about computers for an _apple user_". I always tell them that it's the reason I switched.

I'm not accusing you of being simple minded btw! It's just that most people are like that. Dumb people use windows. Dumb people use apple. Reality is more complex than "X = Y".