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595 points rbanffy | 81 comments | | HN request time: 1.779s | source | bottom
1. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43505551[source]
My general takes (as someone who also has a somewhat popular blog) is that

The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text. I often put the tweet-length version of the post in the title or first paragraph. Get to the point quickly, then elaborate. Means you can bail out at any point of the text and still take home most of what mattered, while the meticulous crowd can have their nitpicks addressed toward the end.

The problem of finding an audience is best solved by being really transparent about what you're about. Inverted pyramid solves that. There's no point to drawing in people who aren't going to be interested. Retaining existing readers beats capturing new readers.

I'm less bullish on images, unless they are profoundly relevant to the text. Illustrations for the sake of having illustrations are no bueno in my opinion. You want to reduce distractions and visual noise. Images should above all never be funny.

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2. sunk1st ◴[] No.43505573[source]
Wouldn’t that be a regular pyramid? In what sense is it inverted?
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3. Galanwe ◴[] No.43505633[source]
That seems intuitive to me, but I guess it depends how you picture it.

I think of a pyramid from the ground up, so a dense base followed by a thinner top.

A inverted pyramid would be thin first then dense and large.

When reading though, you go from top to bottom, so if you're more visual instead of time based, you may see it the other way around.

4. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43505671[source]
It's not my name for it, but an established term for the style, so I wouldn't know.

I would note that most pyramid metaphors tend to be kind of lacking. Test pyramid, food pyramid, etc.

5. jasode ◴[] No.43505690[source]
> In what sense is it inverted?

The triangle is upside down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid_(journalism)

replies(1): >>43505938 #
6. mtlynch ◴[] No.43505719[source]
Thanks for reading, Viktor!

>I'm less bullish on images, unless they are profoundly relevant to the text. Illustrations for the sake of having illustrations are no bueno in my opinion. You want to reduce distractions and visual noise.

I'll respectfully disagree on this one. You can overdo images, but I think readers find a wall of text intimidating and visually too boring, but this is a matter of taste.

>Images should above all never be funny.

I strongly disagree with this. It's like saying a technical blog post should never have jokes.

Why should an image never be funny?

I think you absolutely can mix humor and useful technical insights. xkcd is probably the best example, but there are lots of authors that complement their writing with humor, both in images and in text.

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7. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43505833[source]
I think you can be funny, but only in posts that are made to be funny. xkcd is primarily intended as comedy and that's fine.

Mixing humor into serious communication comes at the expense of authenticity. It's difficult to know what an author really means when they mix attempts at humor into the writing (and this is often deliberate, if someone makes a particularly spicy political remark, it's usually in the form of a joke, in order to shield from potential backlash). Overall it's a style of writing that feels sophomoric and insecure, as though the message itself isn't enough so there's a need to crack jokes to compensate. This successfully distracts from the message you're trying to convey, ... at the expense of clarity.

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8. lapcat ◴[] No.43505902{3}[source]
> Mixing humor into serious communication comes at the expense of authenticity.

Only if you're authentically humorless. ;-)

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9. azornathogron ◴[] No.43505938{3}[source]
It's funny because from that diagram I really don't see any particular relationship between the shape and its content. You could draw a regular pyramid with three segments and write the same labels on it and it would make just as much sense to me.

If anything a regular pyramid makes more sense to me: you want the smallest/narrowest useful description at the top and then you gradually expand on it as you go down, providing more (wider) context and detail for the key information.

Edit: Of course, it's a widely used term and good to understand in that context; the Wikipedia link is useful.

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10. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43505949{4}[source]
I wouldn't say never under any circumstance to do this, a pun or a joke occasionally creeps into my posts as well, though I feel this is definitely a less-is-more thing.

You sometimes find texts where you get the feeling the author almost expects a sitcom laugh track over the post, and funnies are crammed into every available crevice.

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11. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43505959{4}[source]
Yeah, this seems to be true for most pyramid models. It's really annoying when you start to spot it.
12. tantalor ◴[] No.43506000[source]
It's a bad metaphor.

In the "inverted pyramid" the most important information (which should come first) is represented by the base, which is the biggest part of the pyramid and holds up the rest of the pyramid. In a sense, it is the foundation, so you have to "get it right".

The analogy is "base = big = foundational = important"

Personally I think that's confusing, because you just as easily say the tip of the pyramid should represent the most important information, which should be conveyed concisely and without extraneous detail or background.

In that case the analogy would be, "tip = concise = main point = important"

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13. bookofjoe ◴[] No.43506017[source]
For sure a HN comment should never have jokes: instant downvotes. Watch this space...
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14. mvkel ◴[] No.43506046[source]
This works for blog posts, certainly. But it falls apart if you're doing anything even slightly long form, or have multiple points to make.

It's also why LinkedIn posts all sound the same.

"It seemed like any other Monday. Little did I know, it was going to be the day that changed my life forever..."

"Marketing isn't about getting the most traffic. It's about converting the most traffic. A thread:"

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15. wonger_ ◴[] No.43506097{4}[source]
I think it's about laying foundations at the beginning, not the length of the text at the beginning. The first sentence/paragraph is the foundation of everything beneath it, whereas the base of a normal pyramid is the foundation of everything above it.
16. barbazoo ◴[] No.43506189[source]
I really like that concept and I’ve never heard of it. Makes me want to pay attention if people do that outside of tech.

> Images should above all never be funny

:)

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17. lapcat ◴[] No.43506263{5}[source]
To put it in perspective, I would note that the article title specifies "how to write blog posts", plural, not merely "how to write a blog post", singular. In other words, you're promoting a body of work, or for lack a better term, a "brand". If you want your brand to be authentic, it needs to reflect your personality. Thus, I think there is leeway for humor, even sarcasm, meandering, rambling, if that's what you tend to do. If you can establish a brand, an audience, then readers will stay with your blog posts because they were written by you, in spite of your style, or perhaps due to your style. Ultimately, of course, you need something interesting and/or important to say, but you don't need to present it robotically. Unless you are a robot! The negative oneth law of robotics is that a robot must not attempt humor.
18. 0cf8612b2e1e ◴[] No.43506400[source]
Also known as BLUF: bottom line up front.
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19. yesfitz ◴[] No.43506575[source]
Why do you think the inverted pyramid doesn't work for longer form?

If you have multiple points that don't both support a larger point, they should probably be split into two separate essays.

Your first example could be the start of an inverted pyramid if the thesis of the post is how the Monday was just like any other. But the next sentence dashes that notion.

The second example could be an example if it quickly follows up with the ways to convert traffic, but better to lead with the novel way(s) to convert traffic, then follow up with why conversion is more important than generation.

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20. ramon156 ◴[] No.43506904[source]
I think a better term is "witty". For example, fasterthanlime's blog executes the funny part well, but it never tries to be witty.
21. gusmally ◴[] No.43506970[source]
aka Barbara Minto's Pyramid Principle: https://www.mckinsey.com/alumni/news-and-events/global-news/...
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22. pansa2 ◴[] No.43507372[source]
> The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text.

Do you find this conflicts with "offering an interesting story that resonates with the reader"?

For example: Using inverted pyramid to describe a problem and my solution, I'd structure my writing as "here's a problem, I found this solution, using this method". Whereas a story would usually be told in chronological order: "here's a problem, I tried these methods, and came to this solution".

Or is it possible to both have your cake and eat it? Tell a good story after giving away the ending?

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23. mtlynch ◴[] No.43507483{3}[source]
I know you're kidding, but I think it's actually more nuanced.

Jokes in HN comments typically don't play well if the whole point of the comment is to make a joke, but if you make a joke in service of a substantive point or attach a joke to an otherwise meaningful comment, there's usually a good response.

I've come to appreciate HN's cultural norms around jokes because if you compare discussion to something like reddit, the top comment is often just a joke or a pop culture quote and then a massive thread of people just talking about the joke or reference rather than the actual story. I think HN's norms do a better job of fostering curious discussion.

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24. PeterFBell ◴[] No.43507597{3}[source]
To :+1: this, even if it's a book - there is a central thesis - a headline and a sentence that tells you whether you want to read more. "Your pet could save your life" - The six surprising reasons that people with pets live longer than others.

Then each chapter has the same: "Getting in touch" - why stroking your cat soothes your body. Etc

You may even have sections within the chapters and each can follow the same format.

Thousands of years ago it was enough just to write down stuff you've learned, call it "Meditations" and hope people would still be reading it in the distant future.

Now if it's just "stuff I've learned about coding" or "things that make me happy" you're going to need an extremely strong hook to tie that together and build an audience.

So start with a single thesis and decompose from there. Inverted pyramids all the way down :)

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25. kens ◴[] No.43507630[source]
Barbara Minto's Pyramid Principle is different. She invented that in 1985. The journalism "inverted pyramid" is much older, going back to the 1800s.
26. xmprt ◴[] No.43507703[source]
The two examples you gave seem like bad examples of inverted pyramid. Inverted pyramid doesn't leave you hanging. It's not clickbait. It should be the case that within 1-2 sentences you can mostly understand what the rest of the article is going to be about (like an abstract).
27. rsync ◴[] No.43507727[source]
“Inverted pyramid …”

I developed a writing format that I call an “iceberg article”:

https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/tip.html

… which qualifies as an inverted pyramid but with some additional attributes.

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28. kens ◴[] No.43507903[source]
The "inverted pyramid" first described a visual pyramid, not a conceptual pyramid. I found an 1887 article in Time magazine on journalism, describing the inverted pyramid structure. Specifically, the top of a newspaper article (the display, summarizing the article) consisted of not just the title, but multiple lines of different sizes. First, the title in large capitals. Next, a line of small capitals. Finally, three, four, or more rows of smaller type arranged in the form of an inverted pyramid.

That is, the lines in the heading got progressively shorter, making a visual inverted pyramid, with the most important information first.

Later, the "inverted pyramid" term described the structure of the entire article with the most important parts first, but the metaphor does seem backward.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rNaEw8DwatwC&pg=PA154&dq=%...

29. sunshowers ◴[] No.43508165[source]
There's a tension here but I don't think it's a fundamental conflict.
30. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43508344[source]
You can have other formats as well, and the one you describe can work out, though you're at serious risk of losing the audience before the big payoff.

I think what matters the most is that the reader can tell quickly whether the text is interesting.

You could start by e.g. describing a mystery, and then proceed to reveal the truth later, this sometimes works, though if the payoff isn't there, readers will feel cheated.

31. irrational ◴[] No.43508457{3}[source]
That is confusing. In my mind, the tip of the pyramid is the smallest part of the pyramid, just like the brief overview at the beginning of the post is the smallest part. The base of the pyramid is the biggest part of they pyramid, so that is the bulk of the post where it goes into detail.
32. mousetree ◴[] No.43508468[source]
When I worked in consulting, we would call this “top down communication” - starting with the key message first. As opposed to storytelling.
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33. kqr ◴[] No.43508777[source]
I have noticed that when I wrote blog posts they tend to fall in one of the two categories. Sometimes I'm trying to share an insight, in which case I make sure not to bury the lede[1]. Sometimes it's the journey to the insight that matters more than the insight itself[2], in which case the narrative take precedence, even if it buries the lede.

In some cases it is possible to combine both, by using the storytelling formula that starts describing the outcome and then traces back to how things ended up that way.

[1]: The lede is in the title, even! https://entropicthoughts.com/code-reviews-do-find-bugs

[2]: This is all meandering discovery. https://entropicthoughts.com/deploying-single-binary-haskell...

34. airstrike ◴[] No.43508813[source]
I've heard it called BLUF, from the military, apparently. Bottom line up front.
35. kqr ◴[] No.43508845{4}[source]
> I really don't see any particular relationship between the shape and its content.

This is often the case with geometric metaphors. They catch on easily, but they rarely make a lot of sense on closer scrutiny.

36. kqr ◴[] No.43508854[source]
I believe some domains use BLUF, for bottom line up front.
37. hk1337 ◴[] No.43508865[source]
> The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text. I often put the tweet-length version of the post in the title or first paragraph. Get to the point quickly, then elaborate. Means you can bail out at any point of the text and still take home most of what mattered, while the meticulous crowd can have their nitpicks addressed toward the end.

This sounds similar to what I was taught, in high school ~30 years ago, about journalism. When you write an article for the paper, the first sentence should have the who, what, when, where. The reader should be able to get the basic, relevant information from the first sentence then start giving more details as you go along. This is not only for the reader but to make it easier for the editor if/when they need to cut an article short then they can just cut text from the end.

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38. rzzzt ◴[] No.43508866[source]
It doesn't work for me, I get a little angry each time I read the above-the-fold five word hot take.
39. ddejohn ◴[] No.43508960[source]
> Images should above all never be funny.

Why on Earth not? Maybe a blog about conflict in the middle east isn't the place, but a blog sharing stories about the tech industry? Surely some humorous screenshots will add to the experience.

Obviously just throwing in random images totally unrelated to the subject matter would be a huge turnoff, but I cannot think of any reason why you'd take such an absolute position on something so low-stakes.

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40. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43509100{4}[source]
I think HN can be quite forgiving when it comes to jokes, as long as they are genuinely funny and fresh. What doesn't go well is predictable reference humor and tired old memes.
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41. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.43509191[source]
You get this jarring tonal whiplash when you add funny images to an otherwise serious text. The images detract from the message you are trying to convey. It also risks triggering a skimming behavior where the reader is just skipping between the images.

It also appears insecure and juvenile, as though you're not fully confident that what you are saying will stand on its own without attempts at comedy, and ironically raises questions about the age and experience of the author.

Of course there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumb, I would strongly avoid this pattern of communication.

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42. RicoElectrico ◴[] No.43509449[source]
Good story defends itself even if you know the ending.
43. mtlynch ◴[] No.43509564{3}[source]
You're kind of moving the goalposts.

You went from "Images should above all never be funny," to "You get this jarring tonal whiplash when you add funny images to an otherwise serious text."

Yeah, if a post's text is 100% serious, then yes it would be jarring to insert funny images. Nobody's suggesting you do that, though.

>It also appears insecure and juvenile, as though you're not fully confident that what you are saying will stand on its own without attempts at comedy, and ironically raises questions about the age and experience of the author.

This comes across to me as strangely judgmental and narrow-minded about what good technical writing is.

Joel Spolsky is, in my opinion, the best software blogger of all time. His posts often integrated humor, and I think it definitely heightened rather than detracted from his writing.

Look at the bloggers who are most popular on HN: Paul Graham, Julia Evans, Simon Willison, Rachel Kroll, Terence Eden. All of them often use a lighthearted style and integrate humor, often with humorous images as well.

44. dalmo3 ◴[] No.43509629{4}[source]
The HN version of that is that the top comment is often an analogy and then a massive thread of people just talking about the analogy rather than the actual point.
45. greenchair ◴[] No.43509747[source]
it decreases authority projection
46. teddyh ◴[] No.43509942[source]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BLUF_(communicati...>
47. ghaff ◴[] No.43509993[source]
It may be worth noting that there are historical reasons why newspapers in particular used that format, especially wire copy. The idea was that, in layout, typeset stories could be cut at more or less an arbitrary point. Magazine stories are much less likely to follow this exact format although they still tend not to completely bury the lede.
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48. forrestthewoods ◴[] No.43510049[source]
> the first sentence should have the who, what, when, where

I utterly despise modern long form journalism which does not establish any of these things until 1/3 through the article. It’s infuriating.

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49. miki123211 ◴[] No.43510306{3}[source]
But aren't you happy when you finally learn that John was wearing Khaki pants and sipping a Latte that he just ordered at a starbucks? /s
50. tehjoker ◴[] No.43510309{3}[source]
The articles were intended for you to read. If you find them annoying, maybe they weren't written for you.
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51. MonkeyClub ◴[] No.43510370{4}[source]
> The articles were intended for you to read

Or they were intended for you to scroll further on the page and load more ads and autoplay videos.

Good essays start with their thesis, expand upon that, and conclude by bringing it back to it.

There is no reason journalism should veer away from a format that works for one goal (information dissemination), unless there are other goals at play (longer engagement).

replies(1): >>43510378 #
52. tehjoker ◴[] No.43510378{5}[source]
Perhaps novels should be written in the inverted triangle format.
replies(1): >>43510625 #
53. dwedge ◴[] No.43510529[source]
I agree with the point and didn't realise it until I read this post. Whenever I see a funny image or comic in a technical post it always feels a bit like it doesn't quite belong there, like someone had a quota for humour. It feels a bit like the author isn't confident with their message and acted like a conference speaker throwing in a bad joke for some easy laughs.

It also breaks the flow. Reading from long form text and then skipping to image and parsing the text breaks the mental flow, for me at least, and there never seems to be a clean place to do it.

54. jkmcf ◴[] No.43510625{6}[source]
Perhaps there's a difference between fiction and non-fiction
replies(1): >>43512044 #
55. wavemode ◴[] No.43511646{3}[source]
It sounds like your problem isn't with funny images, but tonal mismatch. In that sense I agree with you - if the article's tone is lighthearted, use lighthearted images. If not, then don't.

I would expect the "a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem" article to include humorous images. I would expect a serious tutorial about monads to not do so.

56. eichin ◴[] No.43511762{3}[source]
> cut at a more or less arbitrary point

Cut literally - I worked on a student newspaper (with professional phototypesetting gear, comparable to the city papers - AKI Ultrasystem) and second-tier "filler" content was just set in a single long column, then pasted up on the layout boards (hot wax as the adhesive) and then trimmed when it ran out of space (with an x-acto blade.) Reading that class of content was kind of optional for the layout editor, at least at 10:30pm when trying to get the boards out the door for an 11pm press deadline...

replies(1): >>43513201 #
57. chatmasta ◴[] No.43511799{3}[source]
It's not just long form journalism. The basic five-paragraph essay, taught in every school from elementary through university level, violates this principle. When you're learning to write, there is an implicit assumption that you have a captive audience — even if it's limited to your teacher — who is forced to read your work. So there is generally insufficient emphasis on "getting to the point." Instead, you're taught to "grab the reader's attention," with an exciting sentence or visual anecdote. That's what you're seeing in long form journalism that usually starts with some narrative description of a central character in the story.

Whereas in the real world, you are competing for attention, and nobody has to read what you write. So if your goal is to convey information, you better get to the point. But if your goal is to tell a story, then what's the rush?

replies(1): >>43513161 #
58. ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 ◴[] No.43512017[source]
> what I was taught, in high school ~30 years ago

They should still be teaching it? I don't think much has changed? I went to school a decade ago, and during that time we still wrote essays following these guidelines.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/subject_specific_writing/writing_...

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/...

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/the_writing_proce...

---

Also, there are many different forms of writing. People write in forms other than argumentative essays, etc.

59. tehjoker ◴[] No.43512044{7}[source]
I think the author can decide how they wish to present their work
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60. Noumenon72 ◴[] No.43512263[source]
I built up a lot of expectation that this article was going to be self-referential and link to a hidden well of info. At the very least it ought to link to one example of such an article so we know you aren't describing something theoretical.
replies(1): >>43512626 #
61. rsync ◴[] No.43512626{3}[source]
It is exactly what you expected - click the "body" link and you'll see the entire topic fully expanded:

https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/body.html

replies(1): >>43518197 #
62. forrestthewoods ◴[] No.43512860{4}[source]
There are more long form articles available than I have time to read. I hate when a juicy sounding headline grabs my attention, but I have to read for 5 minutes just to figure out what it’s actually about and if I want to keep reading. The disappointment of going from “interesting title” to “vague unimportant flashback” is immense.
63. ketzo ◴[] No.43512939[source]
Particularly with technical writing, I think you can definitely get away with both.

“How I Reduced My Postgres Query Latency By 100x With A Single Index”

Even in the title, I can tell you the punchline (if you wanna make your DB access faster, use an index!)

but an interested reader still wants to figure out how exactly your solution works, and you can tell them some interesting details along the way

“just enforcing unique constraints does help certain data types, but it’s not a big performance boost most of the time”

while finishing on the kicker

“Since my hottest endpoint by far was for individual users querying orders which were still ongoing, I created an index on the user field for the orders table, and included a status filter in the index, which took p90 latency from 10s to <100ms!”

64. grandempire ◴[] No.43513161{4}[source]
> Whereas in the real world, you are competing for attention, and nobody has to read what you write

Note that this is a cultural artifact relative to our time where marketing and lobbying are so pervasive. Aristotle isn’t written to grab your attention.

65. ghaff ◴[] No.43513201{4}[source]
Yeah. I was on a student paper and then actually co-founded one at a different school. At the time I don’t we used wire service copy in either case but you still needed to make stuff fit.
66. ako ◴[] No.43513278{3}[source]
I feel like most news articles I read miss the why, just like your first sentence.
67. SwtCyber ◴[] No.43513506[source]
Interesting take on images. I've found them helpful when they clarify something (e.g. architecture diagrams, before/after screenshots), but yeah, filler visuals or jokey memes can definitely cheapen the tone depending on the audience.
68. n0tquitehere ◴[] No.43513546{3}[source]
Humour can absolutely feel forced and insecure, however it can be a great tool to help deliver a point. Done well humour can help with the flow of a presentation or text, done badly it jars. You have to know your audience and keep your humour on topic: "street jokes"* are almost never going to work in your favour.

I read a really interesting book* about the topic a while back where the authors delve into why humour works and how to find a style of humour that works for you. Unfortunately there are places imo where they fall into their own trap of trying too hard, but honestly it serves to prove the point.

* https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Street%20Jok...

* https://www.humorseriously.com/

69. pipes ◴[] No.43514694[source]
The reverse of a wired article then. Takes about ten pages of scrolling to to get to the point.
70. strogonoff ◴[] No.43515022[source]
The inverted pyramid principle is like a cold shower: it feels harsh at first but is overall good for your fitness as a writer, as it requires you to 1) understand your own main idea and distil it, which is not always easy if you are not writing a factual news story, and 2) not indulge and get to that distillation immediately, allowing the reader to stop whenever they reach the level of detail they want, which may not jive well with a “free” ad-based publication model but is absolutely reasonable in a subscription-based model (which is, I suppose, where the rule originated).

It is among the few useful things I learned at the university.

71. roland35 ◴[] No.43515171[source]
I think the key is to be your authentic self. If you’re trying to force being funny it comes off poorly.
72. bookofjoe ◴[] No.43515435{5}[source]
Unfortunately for me, that's all I got. No quarter for being a geezer (76).
73. jvanderbot ◴[] No.43515583[source]
You just described pyramid (point at top) but called it inverted pyramid (point at bottom)
74. MonkeyClub ◴[] No.43515652{8}[source]
But the author has no intent!

(Eng. Lit. /s)

75. jvanderbot ◴[] No.43515935[source]
Ok, but isn't pyramid the point at the top, and inverted pyramid is the point is at the bottom? Have I been looking at the wrong pyramids my whole life?
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76. ThrowawayR2 ◴[] No.43515999{3}[source]
Steve Yegge's (in)famous Google platforms rant and his other early essays is a counterexample I would think. It was taken down long ago but there's an archived copy at https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611 .
77. mvkel ◴[] No.43516533{3}[source]
To me it just gets repetitive. After the first one, my brain recognizes the pattern. If chapter 1 starts with a bang, then fills in the blanks, then chapter 2 is structured in the exact same way, it feels formulaic; not good writing
78. mvkel ◴[] No.43516537{4}[source]
This sounds like a business book on cats. Useful, yes, but not something I'd read for its writing value.
79. stavros ◴[] No.43518197{4}[source]
A few years ago I wrote an implementation of what you describe: https://skorokithakis.github.io/expounder/
80. ithkuil ◴[] No.43519046{3}[source]
No you looked at pyramids the right way.

The disconnect here is what is the meaning of the "width" of the triangle/pyramid in the analogy.

The idea in the journalistic inverted pyramid concept is that the width of the pyramid correlates to the importance of the information.

So you start first with the most important information (the base of the pyramid, at the top) and then as you continue you fill in the details that may be interesting and necessary to support the important information, but not necessarily important on their own (the tip of the pyramid, at the bottom)

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81. jvanderbot ◴[] No.43519725{4}[source]
So it's precisely the opposite. Wonderful. I suppose I shouldn't expect anything different, after a few decades of seeing these opposite interpretations arise in parallel.