Most active commenters
  • darksaints(7)
  • blindriver(7)
  • mindslight(4)
  • aprilthird2021(3)

←back to thread

300 points proberts | 31 comments | | HN request time: 5.336s | source | bottom

I'll be here for the next 6 hours. As usual, there are countless possible topics and I'll be guided by whatever you're concerned with but as much as possible I'd like to focus on the recent changes and potential changes in U.S. immigration law, policy, and practice. Please remember that I am limited in providing legal advice on specific cases for obvious liability reasons because I won't have access to all the facts. Please stick to a factual discussion in your questions and comments and I'll try to do the same in my responses. Thank you!
Show context
fuzztail ◴[] No.43363226[source]
I've seen recent examples of the government targeting green card holders for their speech. As a naturalized citizen who wants to exercise my free speech rights, how concerned should I be about potentially having my citizenship challenged on technical grounds? Are there realistic scenarios where this could happen despite First Amendment protections?
replies(7): >>43363243 #>>43363333 #>>43363705 #>>43363935 #>>43365810 #>>43368434 #>>43369456 #
mc32[dead post] ◴[] No.43363333[source]
[flagged]
darksaints ◴[] No.43363411[source]
Green card holders have a right to free speech.
replies(4): >>43364017 #>>43364839 #>>43365360 #>>43369933 #
1. sigzero ◴[] No.43365360[source]
Green cards come with rules to keep. If you break those rules you can and probably will lose your green card and be deported.
replies(2): >>43365519 #>>43366040 #
2. darksaints ◴[] No.43365519[source]
Could you show me where in those rules it says that you're not allowed to support Palestine? Or possibly somewhere in the rules where you forfeit your right to free speech?
replies(3): >>43366029 #>>43366106 #>>43366270 #
3. hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.43366040[source]
"Green cards come with rules to keep."

The whole issue is that the current administration has determined that they are the sole arbiter of those "rules", and they can detain and attempt to deport green card holders without any due process.

replies(1): >>43366141 #
4. hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.43366094{3}[source]
January 6th protesters were all arrested with valid warrants and received full due process (until they were all pardoned).

Mahmoud Khalil was arrested solely on the discretion of Marco Rubio (the arresting agents thought they were revoking his visa when he is in fact a green card holder), he has not been criminally charged, he was been provided with little to no contact with his lawyers, as far as I've read he lead protests but there is no evidence he has provided material support to Hamas.

Comparing his situation to the January 6th protestors is the "falsest" of false equivalences.

5. impute ◴[] No.43366106[source]
Green card holders can have their GC stripped for committing crimes. If free speech becomes a crime then the GC is at risk.

Note - I don't agree with it but I think this is the logic the current administration is using.

replies(1): >>43370265 #
6. kevin_thibedeau ◴[] No.43366141[source]
Promoting a declared terrorist organization isn't a gray area. Nor is abusing schedule 1 drugs but the felon seems to want his African buddy to slide on that one.
replies(1): >>43366279 #
7. darksaints ◴[] No.43366208{3}[source]
Like most MAGAs, your ability to project false equivalence is unmatched. There were thousands of actual laws, passed by congress, on the books that prohibited the actions of January 6th protesters that were charged. Can you point to a single protestor that was charged that did not unlawfully enter the capitol building? There were thousands of people that were there protesting but never stepped foot in the capitol building. They were not charged. No MAGAts had their right to protest infringed on...they had unlawful entry, criminal tresspass, assault/battery, destruction of property, attempt to disrupt official proceedings, etc.

Mahmoud Khalil has broken no laws, at least according to the accusations of the government. He hasn't even demonstrated support for Hamas...and it wouldn't be illegal even if he did. All he has done is said something that some people don't like. That is not a crime.

That's why this is egregious, where J6 protest convictions are completely logical and morally consistent.

8. Natsu ◴[] No.43366270[source]
On the I-485, which you file to get a GC, you have to answer several questions like this:

> Do you intend to engage in any activity that could endanger the welfare, safety, or security of the United States? > NOTE: If you answered "Yes" to any part of Item Numbers 42.a. - 45., explain what you did, including the dates and location of the circumstances, or what you intend to do in the space provided in Part 14. Additional Information

> Recruited members or asked for money or things of value for a group or organization that did any of the activities described in Item Numbers 43.b. - 43.e.

If you say 'yes' to these, you probably aren't getting a GC. If you falsely say 'no' to these, you may have committed fraud. The reference to Item Numbers 43.b - 43.e can be found by reading the I-485 - https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-4... - but to save you time, it seems to apply to any group doing armed resistance.

That said, mere speech supporting Palestine is, as you say, legal. I also think that it had to be false at the time the statement was made, not something he only did afterwards. But if they can show that a person lied on these questions or any of the other several dozen questions in the application, they can accuse them of obtaining the GC fraudulently and go into removal proceedings.

Reading between the lines, this is what I believe is happening to Khalil based on statements given in articles like - https://reason.com/2025/03/13/mahmoud-khalil-is-an-easy-call... - compare the questions I quoted to their stated justifications in that article:

> The official said that Khalil is a "threat to the foreign policy and national security interests of the United States." > "The allegation here is not that he was breaking the law," said the official. "He was mobilizing support for Hamas and spreading antisemitism in a way that is contrary to the foreign policy of the U.S."

Now, I'm not exactly sure exactly how removal proceedings work, but from what I've read, it seems likely that he'll get some kind of hearing. Hopefully, this gets adjudicated properly, promptly and fairly in a way that respects his first amendment rights, though it is concerning that someone can just be held in detainment waiting for all this.

replies(1): >>43370397 #
9. darksaints ◴[] No.43366279{3}[source]
Promoting a terrorist organization is legal and well within the boundaries of free speech. It's just not cool, not a good look, and should be shamed into submission.

Providing material support to a terrorist organization is where it crosses into criminal territory.

replies(2): >>43367054 #>>43368825 #
10. worik ◴[] No.43367054{4}[source]
> Promoting a terrorist organization...

is not what Mahmoud Kahill (sp?) was doing.

He's was protesting the University of Columbia's support of Israel, who were engaged in a wildly homicidal campaign against his kin.

replies(1): >>43367552 #
11. darksaints ◴[] No.43367552{5}[source]
I’m well aware. Read my other comments in this thread.
12. blindriver ◴[] No.43368825{4}[source]
You need to educate yourself. This is 100% incorrect. It might be legal for a citizen but not a permanent resident. Endorsing terrorism is a question asked on every Green Card and naturalization application, and will get your deported. Until you are a citizen you will lose your green card for endorsing terrorism.
replies(2): >>43370258 #>>43373256 #
13. aprilthird2021 ◴[] No.43370258{5}[source]
So if a green card holder said "I can see why people support Hamas" should he be expelled? When does just talking about a situation turn into "endorsement" or "support"?
replies(2): >>43372499 #>>43373775 #
14. lazyasciiart ◴[] No.43370265{3}[source]
No, the administration is using a clause that allows the Secretary of State to designate a person as a threat to the country and strip their green card. They have explicitly said it is not based on any accusation of crime.
15. int_19h ◴[] No.43370397{3}[source]
He'll get a hearing in immigration "court", an administrative court where the judge is on the payroll of the agency and very few rights you have in normal courts apply. Just to give one example, these are the same courts that have been putting 3-year-old children on trial without representation and calling that "due process".
replies(1): >>43374841 #
16. trollbridge ◴[] No.43372499{6}[source]
That’s part of the problem here. The federal government can decide by fiat that you did a bad thing before you applied for a green card and then deport you based on that.

They can also say you did a bad thing after and revoke your green card, although it’s a bit more paperwork to do so and requires a higher up to sign off on it (in this recent case, the Secretary of State himself).

I’m not aware of any country that provides blanket free speech for noncitizens.

replies(1): >>43375967 #
17. darksaints ◴[] No.43373256{5}[source]
Conditions for admissibility are one thing, and you can be denied entry for any thought crime that the government wants to impose.

Once you are in, you have the same rights to free speech as any citizen, and the same rights to due process as well. In fact, the only thing they can do to curb your free speech is prove in court that you lied on your application. Which is likely how this case will play out after judges rule on how illegal their attempted action is, but as of yet the government has not provided any evidence of him lying on his application.

replies(1): >>43373748 #
18. blindriver ◴[] No.43373748{6}[source]
No you do not have the same rights as any citizen. You are wrong. You cannot endorse terrorism. If you come into the US on a visa and say "Death to America!" then you will be deported. This has been the case for decades upon decades and in my opinion it is correct. It's called biting the hand that feeds you and that person is taking a spot from someone else who would be grateful for being in the US.
replies(1): >>43376046 #
19. blindriver ◴[] No.43373775{6}[source]
Yes, it's enough to get lawyers involved if you're stupid enough to get caught for talking about terrorism like that when you're on your green card.
replies(1): >>43375697 #
20. Natsu ◴[] No.43374841{4}[source]
I've been made to understand there should be a hearing before an administrative law judge but I don't know much beyond that. I don't think he gets a jury or anything like that, though.
21. aprilthird2021 ◴[] No.43375697{7}[source]
That's ridiculous, imo. If we don't understand geopolitics and can't talk about it, what hope do we have of being good at it?
22. aprilthird2021 ◴[] No.43375967{7}[source]
We used to be a unique country when it came to free speech. No reason why it shouldn't be provided to noncitizens too, imo. We let our enemies pump news and media into our country because we believe the people actually run the country.
23. darksaints ◴[] No.43376046{7}[source]
Your opinion doesn’t matter dude. Decades of jurisprudence and Supreme Court precedent has already conclusively determined that green card holders have the same rights to free speech as citizens. It would take overturning the existing Supreme Court precedent, and destroying the 1st amendment along with it, for that to go away.
replies(1): >>43378065 #
24. blindriver ◴[] No.43378065{8}[source]
You are completely wrong. Supreme Court found that aliens do not have full first amendment protection, especially around terrorism.
replies(1): >>43380074 #
25. mindslight ◴[] No.43380074{9}[source]
s/Supreme Court found/Subservient Council declared/g

Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is framed in terms of recognizing independent-existing natural inalienable rights. Citizenship is a complete red herring. The SC has been writing justifications for blatant infringement of natural rights for decades, even before the current neofascist takeover. Take the Bill of Rights as a list of test cases, run down them, and try to find one that is actually passing.

replies(1): >>43381861 #
26. blindriver ◴[] No.43381861{10}[source]
Wrong.

Reno v. American-Arab Antidiscrimination Committee made it clear that there are no First amendment protections from deportation. This is well established case law for decades now.

https://www.aclu.org/documents/reno-v-adc

This is why talking confidently about things you have absolutely no idea about makes you look foolish.

replies(1): >>43382686 #
27. mindslight ◴[] No.43382686{11}[source]
Nothing in your comment is a logical response to anything in mine. Perhaps you need to take your own advice, especially with text that's right above where you're typing?
replies(1): >>43385102 #
28. blindriver ◴[] No.43385102{12}[source]
Probably because you don't understand what I posted. It clearly states that non-citizens do not enjoy First Amendment protections when it comes to deportation, which is exactly what Khalil is going through right now. If you don't understand how this relates, then you need some deep education on what you were posting about.
replies(1): >>43385394 #
29. mindslight ◴[] No.43385394{13}[source]
I understand your comments just fine. Rather it seems that you have a comprehension problem. Your link may state that the Supreme Court has declared that non-citizens [etc]. Pointing out that you're holding up this declaration as if it's some unassailable logical conclusion rather than an arguable policy decree is the crux of my comment.
replies(1): >>43389069 #
30. blindriver ◴[] No.43389069{14}[source]
Ah, so you don’t understand how the judicial branch works. Okay. Regardless of what you want to believe, non-citizens do not enjoy first amendment rights when it comes to deportation. Period. End of story. You can be against this all you want, but Khalil will be lawfully deported and so will any other non-citizens that engage in endorsing terrorism. This is established case law.
replies(1): >>43390672 #
31. mindslight ◴[] No.43390672{15}[source]
I don't know why you keep jumping to characterize disagreement as misunderstanding. Your apparent belief that the courts somehow represent infallible logic rather than merely a different type of policymaking is exactly why I'm making my point. Like, it's a big deal when a new justice gets appointed, right? They're not just interchangeable cogs.

Pragmatically, yes, Khalil will likely be deported due to having exercised his freedom of speech. This, along with many other current affairs, should be abhorrent to anybody who actually believes in the ideals of individual liberty - regardless of the justifications crafted by the judicial, executive, and fourth estate. And I really don't know what you gain by cheerleading authoritarianism, besides some feeling of smugness of being on the winning team.