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271 points nradov | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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andai ◴[] No.42172596[source]
King thinks democracy is a great idea. Everyone rejects it. King institutes it anyway.

Wait a second...

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0xDEAFBEAD ◴[] No.42172854[source]
Similar situation in the US:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/10/72-of-ame...

Interesting how a process based on the will of the majority can also be disapproved of by the majority.

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vundercind ◴[] No.42172974[source]
That's just true, but people were wrong before when they thought we were good (and they may be wrong now about why we're a bad example).

There's a reason that when we (anyone, really, but even the US) let the policy nerds set up a democracy somewhere else, they usually don't model much or any of it on the US. The system's not been regarded as especially good, as systems of democracy go, since not later than the early 20th century, as it became clear that not only does it have serious problems, but some of those are extremely resistant to repair.

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andrekandre ◴[] No.42173422[source]

  > The system's not been regarded as especially good, as systems of democracy go, since not later than the early 20th century
what are some of the problems in your view?
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vundercind ◴[] No.42173743[source]
The FPTP system of elections used for most federal elections in the country is certainly the worst part. Stabilizing at only two viable parties rather than several that must (most of the time) form coalitions to govern causes a bunch of problems, with few benefits. It is also why so much of the rest is hard to fix, including why this system of elections has been so hard to move away from. At the strictly federal level, the notorious electoral college system reinforces FPTP and has accomplished little of its positive intentions, leaving only "give lower-free-population slave states more power" (which has become simply "give lower population states more power" after the civil war) which effect is simply bad, as was the original primary reason for including it (and again, secondary reasons like "direct election of a position like president is kinda dumb [true!] so we should instead vote for trusted, wise representatives to go make the decision for us" never worked as intended, so aren't reasons to keep it)

The Supreme Court was recognized as super-dangerous at the founding and the solution some of our much-revered founders provided was "I guess we can just ignore them when they do really bad things?" which definitely seems not great.

Lack of a defense against gerrymandering is extremely bad, but file under things that jettisoning FPTP would largely fix without further specific action. The many ill effects of FPTP are why it's so bad.

There's some evidence that common law significantly increases the overall cost of government administration over continental systems of jurisprudence, though that's a more-recent and developing area of potential weakness.

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0xDEAFBEAD ◴[] No.42175626[source]
The crazy thing is that in the recent 2024 US election, there were a number of ballot initiatives to replace FPTP, and FPTP won every time. Ranked choice was even repealed in Alaska. The majority spoke, and they said they prefer an "inferior" system.

Democracy has a fascinating "self-refuting" quality to it.

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1. digging ◴[] No.42177389[source]
Democracy is not exactly a single thing though, but current forms kind of do have that quality, yes. "Casting binary votes on specific questions and no take-backs" is actually a kind of terrible model of democracy. There's got to be other ways.

If we take "a healthy interpersonal relationship between people with mutual respect, self-knowledge, and strong communication skills" as a model, we can see how two or more people continually grow into the kinds of lives they want to lead by working together, and that's the kind of democracy I'd like to have.

Obviously, this doesn't scale. But that doesn't mean we just give up and take the lazy, clearly bad option. We ought to evaluate the situation we're actually in and adapt.

I mean, FPTP is obviously bad, but if we're being honest, we should expect a plurality if not majority of people to be unable to recognize a bad decision even when it's presented to them as such. We know that if you run enough emotionally-triggering ads and you will get supporters of virtually any idea - this is basically the concept of manufactured consent. And I think our society can't really evolve in a healthy way until we accept that more widely. (By accept, I mean "beware of", not "exploit".)

If you want a program to run efficiently and give you good results, you don't just keep taking lazier and lazier approaches and delete functions you don't understand. You carefully refactor. It's a continuous process. That's what we're supposed to do with our democratic institutions, but unfortunately, we're stuck focusing on specific outputs so much that we can't even understand the root problems.