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167 points billybuckwheat | 32 comments | | HN request time: 1.876s | source | bottom
1. asdasdsddd ◴[] No.42169334[source]
It's insane how successful Japan is in spite of their corporate inefficiencies.
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2. adamc ◴[] No.42169379[source]
It's fascinating and makes me want to know more about how the culture works.
replies(1): >>42169419 #
3. latentsea ◴[] No.42169419[source]
It works by having it beaten into for you several decades of your childhood that you don't speak up, you put the groups first, and appearances trump reality.

I don't necessarily think it's any better or any worse than western culture. My perspective is "it just has different failure modes".

replies(3): >>42169486 #>>42169503 #>>42176260 #
4. makeitdouble ◴[] No.42169464[source]
This isn't ineficiency though, probably closer to bullying.

Quitting a job has no complex moving parts, and most corporation will deal with it with minimal paperwork (you really only need to prove you gave them your resignation. An email reply would be enough legally).

The issues these new graduates (the source of the TFA is MyNavi, which is new graduate centric) are facing are arbitrary, purposefuly set to make their life harder.

replies(2): >>42169600 #>>42169841 #
5. Dalewyn ◴[] No.42169486{3}[source]
Yes, a large part of why Japanese society appears (and in fact performs) so perfect is because of an absolute fear of shame.

From the moment you are born you are taught to care about what and how others think and feel about you and your conduct. If it's not your social peers, it's the literal Sun ("Otentou-sama") looking down upon you and judging your every single moment. If you shame yourself, you also bring shame upon your family and your ancestors both living and dead.

To be clear: This does work, and most Japanese are happy to serve society rather than feel compelled to do so at threat of cancellation. There are also benefits for the compliant, namely in the form of social safety nets both legal and social to ensure a minimum standard of living.

Japanese expats are a particular bunch, they left Japan because they couldn't stand the shaming and strict adherence to social codes. A kind of "you can't fire me if I quit" response.

6. Escapado ◴[] No.42169503{3}[source]
Agreed and I would add to the list the ungodly amount of hours they work. I know per hour they might not be as productive (or simply held back by antiquated processes within their companies) but they seem to make up for it in part by working so much overtime.
7. jappgar ◴[] No.42169535[source]
Well, Japan hasn't done too well in the software world over the last 30 years.

Meanwhile American software companies and employees are both infamously disloyal and have done quite well.

replies(1): >>42170395 #
8. serjester ◴[] No.42169540[source]
Maybe it's not in spite of but rather because of them?

To me, it seems like if you were designing a brand new society optimized only to maximize the countries GDP, you'd implement the Japanese model - employees who never leave their employers, extremely long work hours and mandatory after work social activities.

China, Japan and SK have all effectively implemented a version of this and their economic growth post WWII has been nothing short of remarkable (China was poorer than Sub Saharan Africa in the 50's).

Obviously, you could say this has not been going very well for Japan more recently but I'd argue the main drawback to this paradigm is the inevitable population implosion.

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9. stainforth ◴[] No.42169600[source]
Can you enumerate the issues new graduates are facing, and when they began on timeline?(if even possible to see explicitly first public)
10. JackFr ◴[] No.42169626[source]
Japan’s per capita GDP has been flat for 30 years.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/jpn/jap....

You can describe that as ‘recently’, but it’s an entire generation.

11. shiroiushi ◴[] No.42169634[source]
As with other places, it worked extremely well as long as the society was inherently sexist, and women weren't allowed to have "men's jobs" and were basically forced by society at large to be mothers and homemakers for husbands who were almost never at home and who never spent any time with their kids. With nothing better to do with their lives and time, and reliable birth control not yet invented or easily available, people had lots of kids to keep the system going.

Nowadays, women want to have more meaning in their lives than just being married to some guy they barely know or care about and raising his kids as some kind of servant with 2nd-class citizen rights. This isn't just in Japan, it's in every developed nation. The result of this is a far lower birthrate, so you can't have a super-high GDP for too long; you get a boost at the beginning because nearly 100% of adults can now contribute to GDP, but it burns out in a few decades because there's no one to replace them.

Societies need to come up with a new model.

replies(1): >>42170147 #
12. prmoustache ◴[] No.42169664[source]
longer work hours != efficiency
13. raincole ◴[] No.42169824[source]
> if you were designing a brand new society optimized only to maximize the countries GDP, you'd implement the Japanese model

Of course you'll copy the US's model. In terms of GDP, the US has been doing so much better than the rest of the world in the last several decades.

replies(1): >>42171270 #
14. asdasdsddd ◴[] No.42169841[source]
W.r.t quitting jobs, the economic inefficiency is that knowledge doesnt diffuse properly. A certain amount of corporate mobility is hugely beneficial. But that's just the tip of the iceberg for bad corporate culture; the social binge drinking, poor sleep, no social life, etc must be bad for productivity... I don't understand how they manage it.
15. unscaled ◴[] No.42169975[source]
Japan's economic growth started well before World War 2. In fact, Japan wouldn't have been able to fight WW2 against the US for so long if it wasn't a fully industrialized country by that time. The country was devastated after the war (just as Germany was), but it wasn't starting from scratch. Many (if not most) of the large Japanese manufacturing conglomerates of today have been successful zaibatsu before the war, that have been only partially broken down and restructured as keiretsu.

I think it's a compelling story to see Japan, the Asian Tigers (two of them former colonies of Japan, the other two former British colonies) and China as having the same growth story, but I don't think it's the same story in all of these places. Outside commentators love to bring up Confucianism, but Confucianism (just like Christianity or Buddhism) is a pretty ancient philosophy and religion that have seen many iterations and has taken many different, perhaps even contradictory shapes and forms over the years. A certain version of it was extremely influential in Japan during the Edo period, but a modern Japanese would probably cite Confucius directly less than a culturally Chinese person would do. And it's certainly an influence in Japan, but the culture is just so different than China, which had its own local influences (including decades of Communism and a not-so-minor Cultural Revolution which targeted the "Four Olds").

I think the best explanation is that all of these countries (in their respective growth period!) had a good degree of political stability and achieved the necessary level of education. They all exercised government guidance through export-oriented policies, but left enough leeway for private companies to choose their own way (in other words, a heavy dose of government meddling that would make neoliberals blush, but not a full-on command economy). And most of all, the timing was right. These countries started to grow their industry (or rebuild it and re-orient it towards export in Japan's case) while fertility was still high and they were relatively poorer than the countries which bought up their goods. And of course, this all happened while world was rapidly globalizing.

It's easy to miss the complex factors involved and recommend the export-oriented playbook to countries where it won't fit, or to think that the same playbook would work forever. It's also easy to blame culture when the things fail. Within Japan, you'd find many commentators who believe the attitudes during the Showa era (1926-1989) were different and the current generation is just incapable of hard work, innovation or whatever else.

But from all I've read and heard about Showa era businesses, they were far less efficient than current Japanese businesses are. The businesses culture was probably probably less risk-averse, but that aversion is itself partly the result of decades of having a somewhat stagnant economy. My pet theory is that Japan was successful during its economic miracle period DESPITE the vast inefficiencies of its corporate culture. It only had western economies to compete with (the Asian Tigers hadn't started to roar yet and China was still far away from industrialization) and the wages in Japan were initially far lower than in the US. From various productivity metrics inefficiencies in other Western countries probably weren't much different back then (this tracks, since it all happened before the mass digitization of the workplace and government which Japan was late to). and despite management, office work and sales practices being inefficient, Japanese companies (most famously Toyota) have developed innovative methods for increasing efficiency and quality on the factory floor.

Fast forward to the 1990s, and Japan is seeing fierce competition from other cheaper producers on many products even before the baby boomer generation is facing retirement with a shrinking population. During that period rich economies are improving their productivity, while poorer economies can just undercut prices due to cheaper labor. Toyota's innovative manufacturing methods are getting adopted outside Japan as well. Japan still leads in places where it has technology advantages or even just a brand or market capture, but in general competition just becomes a lot harder.

At this point, mature economies can only do so much. No matter what the government and individual corporations do, we cannot expect anything close to the growth rates of the 1950s-1970s again. But inefficiencies are clearly hurting Japanese businesses.

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16. kiba ◴[] No.42170147{3}[source]
The result of this is lower birthrate in the current cultural configuration.

As is, women regularly delayed having children until they're near or past their fertility window, if they want children at all. In our current society, it's difficult to both have a career and be a mother.

replies(1): >>42170560 #
17. dyauspitr ◴[] No.42170387[source]
It’s not inefficiency. This has a tinge of slavery to it.
18. kergonath ◴[] No.42170395[source]
Is that a cause, though? I can see both as being consequences of the sheer amount of money sloshing around in the Silicon Valley. It generally helps things because there’s just so much resources to tap. It also helps employees getting poached with better salaries and compensation. But it does not mean that it can be replicated that way in another country.
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19. shiroiushi ◴[] No.42170560{4}[source]
Very, very true. Professional women these days are going to extreme lengths now to have children at older ages: IVF, etc. As it is, it starts getting difficult at around age 35. Yet, advanced education can easily last until your late 20s, and your late 20s and 30s are the time when you need to build your career.

If scientists could come up with a way of making women much more fertile up to, say, age 60 (in an affordable and reliable way I mean, current treatments are unreliable and horrifically expensive), I wonder what effect this would have on the birth rate.

replies(2): >>42171210 #>>42191234 #
20. badpun ◴[] No.42170709{3}[source]
Japan is one of the oldest nations in the world (in terms of demographics), and, unlike other super-old nations (Germany, Italy), is refusing to let in immigrants. Under such conditions, having just 0% GDP growth, and not a constant recession, is not a bad result.
21. gred ◴[] No.42171210{5}[source]
Or we could work with the natural order of things, rather than against it... nah, too crazy.
replies(2): >>42172550 #>>42178922 #
22. master-lincoln ◴[] No.42171270{3}[source]
I could only find data for the last decade quickly, but looking at this, the USA was not the leader in GDP growth. It was in absolute GDP though, but OP was talking about growth
23. probably_wrong ◴[] No.42172550{6}[source]
I'm not sure I'm joking when I say: if you manage to convincingly solve the "work/children" dilemma you may become a strong candidate for a Nobel prize (or at least The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences).
replies(1): >>42172711 #
24. gred ◴[] No.42172711{7}[source]
Nah, I would propose that people stop trying to "have it all", accept reality, and settle for one or the other (mainly one for men, and the other for women).

Nobody wants to hear that these days, if they ever did.

25. jappgar ◴[] No.42173144{3}[source]
You're right. It's not that disloyalty necessarily enables better software but that, apparently, loyalty is not a requirement.

It can also be true that the work culture in Japan stymies effective modern software development. I've heard anecdotes to this effect but it doesn't seem like something you could easily measure.

26. adamc ◴[] No.42176260{3}[source]
That isn't really what I meant, and yeah, I was ambiguous. When you have a culture where people can't tell the boss things he doesn't want to hear -- of which resignation is an example -- how do companies expect to get honest feedback? How do they detect problems earlier in the process? Etc.

Cultures are never just dysfunctional; there are usually a complicated set of compensations that makes the dysfunction more bearable. I'm curious how that works.

replies(1): >>42176533 #
27. latentsea ◴[] No.42176533{4}[source]
They don't want feedback. They want you to listen and obey. It doesn't actually matter if things are wrong, so long as in the moment the boss thinks they aren't, then to him they aren't since appearances trump reality. The boss would prefer you didn't disturb that. The result is sometimes things just blow up spectacularly later on down the track but "shou ga nai".

The compensation that makes the dysfunction more bearable is the culture of "gaman" which is deeply, deeply ingrained from a young age. It's normal for them to just suck it up and tolerate shit they don't like. It's a way of life. For everything thing else there is "shou ga nai" which often translates to "it can't be helped" and many Westerners think it's just Japanese people giving up too easily and don't really get it, but it comes from the Buddhist philosophy of accepting things as they are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaman_(term)

replies(1): >>42178956 #
28. shiroiushi ◴[] No.42178922{6}[source]
I suppose you also think it's "the natural order of things" for Black people to be enslaved, right?
replies(1): >>42193227 #
29. adamc ◴[] No.42178956{5}[source]
That doesn't explain anything, though. If they don't get feedback, shouldn't it make their businesses less effective?
replies(1): >>42187148 #
30. latentsea ◴[] No.42187148{6}[source]
Hence their stagnant economy.
31. kelnos ◴[] No.42191234{5}[source]
I can't imagine anyone wanting to have to deal with raising a toddler in their 60s and a teenager in their 70s. Sure, people do it (e.g., grandparents adopting their grandchildren for whatever reason), but this seems like a generally bad idea.

Better would be to just make things easier for parents. Cheap or free childcare, for one thing.

32. gred ◴[] No.42193227{7}[source]
Please read the guidelines. Assume good faith.