←back to thread

625 points lukebennett | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
LASR ◴[] No.42140045[source]
Question for the group here: do we honestly feel like we've exhausted the options for delivering value on top of the current generation of LLMs?

I lead a team exploring cutting edge LLM applications and end-user features. It's my intuition from experience that we have a LONG way to go.

GPT-4o / Claude 3.5 are the go-to models for my team. Every combination of technical investment + LLMs yields a new list of potential applications.

For example, combining a human-moderated knowledge graph with an LLM with RAG allows you to build "expert bots" that understand your business context / your codebase / your specific processes and act almost human-like similar to a coworker in your team.

If you now give it some predictive / simulation capability - eg: simulate the execution of a task or project like creating a github PR code change, and test against an expert bot above for code review, you can have LLMs create reasonable code changes, with automatic review / iteration etc.

Similarly there are many more capabilities that you can ladder on and expose into LLMs to give you increasingly productive outputs from them.

Chasing after model improvements and "GPT-5 will be PHD-level" is moot imo. When did you hire a PHD coworker and they were productive on day-0 ? You need to onboard them with human expertise, and then give them execution space / long-term memories etc to be productive.

Model vendors might struggle to build something more intelligent. But my point is that we already have so much intelligence and we don't know what to do with that. There is a LOT you can do with high-schooler level intelligence at super-human scale.

Take a naive example. 200k context windows are now available. Most people, through ChatGPT, type out maybe 1500 tokens. That's a huge amount of untapped capacity. No human is going to type out 200k of context. Hence why we need RAG, and additional forms of input (eg: simulation outcomes) to fully leverage that.

replies(43): >>42140086 #>>42140126 #>>42140135 #>>42140347 #>>42140349 #>>42140358 #>>42140383 #>>42140604 #>>42140661 #>>42140669 #>>42140679 #>>42140726 #>>42140747 #>>42140790 #>>42140827 #>>42140886 #>>42140907 #>>42140918 #>>42140936 #>>42140970 #>>42141020 #>>42141275 #>>42141399 #>>42141651 #>>42141796 #>>42142581 #>>42142765 #>>42142919 #>>42142944 #>>42143001 #>>42143008 #>>42143033 #>>42143212 #>>42143286 #>>42143483 #>>42143700 #>>42144031 #>>42144404 #>>42144433 #>>42144682 #>>42145093 #>>42145589 #>>42146002 #
crystal_revenge ◴[] No.42140135[source]
I don't think we've even started to get the most value out of current gen LLMs. For starters very few people are even looking at sampling which is a major part of the model performance.

The theory behind these models so aggressively lags the engineering that I suspect there are many major improvements to be found just by understanding a bit more about what these models are really doing and making re-designs based on that.

I highly encourage anyone seriously interested in LLMs to start spending more time in the open model space where you can really take a look inside and play around with the internals. Even if you don't have the resources for model training, I feel personally understanding sampling and other potential tweaks to the model (lots of neat work on uncertainty estimations, manipulating the initial embedding the prompts are assigned, intelligent backtracking, etc).

And from a practical side I've started to realize that many people have been holding on of building things waiting for "that next big update", but there a so many small, annoying tasks that can be easily automated.

replies(8): >>42140256 #>>42141284 #>>42141433 #>>42141459 #>>42141522 #>>42141760 #>>42142470 #>>42143106 #
1. deegles ◴[] No.42141433[source]
My big question is what is being done about hallucination? Without a solution it's a giant footgun.
replies(3): >>42143293 #>>42145814 #>>42148625 #
2. MBCook ◴[] No.42143293[source]
CAN anything be done? At a very low level they’re basically designed to hallucinate text until it looks like something you’re asking for.

It works disturbingly well. But because it doesn’t have any actual intrinsic knowledge it has no way of knowing when it made a “good“ hallucination versus a “bad“ one.

I’m sure people are working at piling things on top to try and influence what gets generated or catch and move away from errors errors other layers spot… but how much effort and resources will be needed to make it “good enough“ that people don’t worry about this anymore.

In my mind the core problem is people are trying to use these for things they’re unsuitable for. Asking fact-based questions is asking for trouble. There isn’t much of a wrong answer if you wanted to generate a bedtime story or a bunch of test data that looks sort of like an example you give it.

If you ask it to find law cases on a specific point you’re going to raise a judge‘s ire, as many have already found.

3. netdevnet ◴[] No.42145814[source]
what do you want done about it? Hallucination is an intrinsic part of how LLMs work. What makes a hallucination is the inconsistency between the hallucinated concept and the reality. Reality is not part of how LLMs work. They do amazing things but at the end of the day they are elaborate statistical machines.

Look behind the veil and see LLMs for what they really are and you will maximise their utility, temper your expectations and save you disappointment

4. jacobr1 ◴[] No.42148625[source]
Semantic search without LLMs is already making a dent. It still gives traditional results that need to be human processed, but you can get "better" search results.

And with that there is a body work on "groundedness" that basically post-processes output to compare it against its source material. It still can result in logic errors and has a base error it self, but can ensure you at least have clear citations for factual claims that match real documents, but doesn't fully ensure they are being referenced correctly (though that is already the case even with real papers produced by humans).

Also consider the baseline isn't perfection, it is a benchmark against real humans. Accuracy is getting much better in certain domains where we have a good corpora. Part of assessing the accuracy of a system is going to be about determining if the generated content is "in distribution" of its training data. There is progress being made in this direction, so we could perhaps do a better job at the application level of making use of a "confidence" score of some kind maybe even taking that into account in a chain of thought like reasoning step.

People keep finding "obviously wrong" hallucinates that seem like proof things are still crap. But these system keep getting better on benchmarks looking at retrieval accuracy. And the benchmarks keep getting better as people point out deficiencies it them. Perfection might not be possible, but consistently better than average human seems in reach, and better than that seems feasible too. The challenge is the class of mistakes might look different even if the error rate overall is lower.