Building a business on blank cheques and accidental spends is shady. It's also a large barrier to adoption. The more times devs see reports like, "I tried [random 20-minute tutorial] and woke up to a bill for my life's savings and luckily support waived the fee this one time but next time they're coming for my house", the less they'll want to explore your offerings.
e.g. for me. I never dared to get my foot wet with AWS, despite interest. Better safe with a cheap, flat-rate VPS than sorry.
Honestly? All the better. There are obviously use cases where AWS is the right tool for the job but it's extremely rare. It's coasting on hype and somehow attaining "no one was ever fired for buying IBM" status.
Neither is what I want. I wish there was a provider with clear and documented limits to allow proper capacity planning while at the same time shifting all the availability risk to the customer but taking on the financial risk. I'd be willing to pay a higher fixed price for that, as long as it is not excessive.
Asking Amazon to do something makes little sense. Create laws that force Amazon, and all the rest, to respect their users money. By default, corporations will do what makes them money, not what is ethical or good for the economy.
Didn't know there was a verb for it! I "homelab" too and so far am very happy. With a (free) CDN in front of it it can handle spikes in traffic (that are rare anyways), and everything is simple and mostly free (since the machines are already there).
You have reached your Configured Maximum Monthly Spend Limit.
As per your settings we have removed all objects from S3, All RDS Databases, All Route53 Domains, all ESB volumes, all elastic IPs, All EC2 instances and all Snapshots.
Please update your spend limit before you recreate the above.
Yours, AWS
It wouldn’t solve the problem for usage-based billing, but it would have solved the problem here.
There's always a dunning period and multiple alerts
Even having the option of a hard spend limit would be hazardous, because accounting teams might push the use of such tools, and thereby risk data loss incidents when problems happen.
Hard spend limits might make sense for indie / SME focused cloud vendors though.
Governments have a systematic pressure, at least in sane countries, to be at least partially responsible towards customers - their citizens and voters.
Corporations do not. especially in businesses with high barriers to entry, and where they can vendor lock you.
Do I absolutely trust each government in every democracy to make the right decisions for any problem? Of course not!
But I still trust them way more than corporations or the "invisible hand of the market"
What a ridiculous point. AWS achieves non-trivial things at scale all the time, and brag about it too.
So many smart engineers with high salaries and they can't figure out a solution like "shut down instances so costs don't continue to grow, but keep the data so nothing critical is lost, at least for a limited time"?
Disingenuous is what you are writing - oh no, it's a hard problem, they can't be expected to even try to solve it.
"Hazardous" feels like the wrong word here - if your customer decides to enact a spend limit it should not be up to you to decide whether that's good for them or not.
Great, so they don’t have to use the feature?
That excuse was a great excuse when AWS was an MVP for someone. 20+ years later… there is no excuse.
Businesses with lawyers and stuff can afford to negotiate with AWS etc. when things go wrong. Individuals who want to upskill on AWS to improve their job prospects have to roll the dice on AWS maybe bankrupting them. AWS actively encourages developers to put themselves in this position.
I don't know if AWS should be regulated into providing spending controls. But if they don't choose to provide spending controls of their own accord, I'll continue to call them out for being grossly irresponsible, because they are.
Also you have variable costs (like s3 traffic) that could put you over your limit half way through the month. Then how does AWS stop you breaching your limit?
On a more practical level I don't think AWS keeps tracks of bills on a minute-by-minute basis.
Sort of related, another wishlist feature I have is a way to start an EC2 instance with a deadline up front, and have the machine automatically suspended or terminated if it exceeds the deadline. I have some programs that start an EC2 instance, do some work, and shut it down (e.g. AMI building), and I would sleep a tiny bit better at night if AWS could deadline the instance as a backstop in case my script unexpectedly died before it could.
> Also you have variable costs (like s3 traffic)
Yeah, that's what I mean by it wouldn't solve the problem of usage-based billing. There they could just cut you off, and I think that's the bargain that people who want hard caps are asking for (there is always a spend cap at which I'd assume something had gone horribly wrong and would rather not keep spending), but I agree that the lack of real-time billing data is probably what stops them there.
The details don't matter, really. For those who decide to set up a hard cap and agree to its terms, there could be a grace period or not. In the end, all instances would be shut down and all data lost, just like in traditional services when you haven't paid your bill so you are no longer entitled to them, pure and simple.
They haven't implemented and never will because Amazon is a company that is obsessed with optimization. There is negative motivation to implement anything related to that.
That feels like a bit of a red herring — if that was their ethos, then you'd _have_ to choose burstable/autoscaling config on every service. If I can configure a service to fall over rather than scale at a hard limit, that points to them understanding different their use cases (prod vs dev) and customer types (start-up vs enterprise).
Additionally, anytime I've worked for an enterprise customer, they've had a master service agreement set-up with AWS professional services rather than entering credit card info, so they could use that as a simple way to offer choices.
In the olden days if we spotted a customer ringing up a colossal bill, we would tell them. These huge Amazon bills are fast but still multiple days. They can trivially use rolling-projection windows to know when an account is having a massive spike.
They could use this foresight to call the customer, ensure they're informed, give them the choice about how to continue. This isn't atomic rocket surgery.
"Oh but profit" isn't an argument. They are thousands of dollars up before a problem occurs. The only money they lose is money gained through customer accident. Much of it forgiven to customers who cannot afford it. It's not happily spent. They can do better business.
I find it funny people bring this pseudo-argument up whenever this issue is discussed. Customers: "We want A, it's crucial for us". People on the Internet: "Do you have any idea how difficult is to implement A? How would it work?" And the discussion diverges into technical details obscuring the main point: AWS is bent on on never implementing this feature even though in the past (that is more than a decade ago) they promised they would do that.
Many of these new AWS-provided stacks, however, seem to create stuff all over your account.
The moral of the story? Don't ever use AWS tools like the one the OP describes, ones which create a bunch of different resources for you automatically.
Yes, why not? I don't see the problem here? If you didn't want that, you could set a higher spending limit.
If they want a little more user-friendly approach they could give you X hours grace.
> You've been above your spending limit for 4 hrs (200%), in 4 hrs your services will go into suspended state. Increase your spending limit to resume.
(Office Space)
The problem is the electorate, and the lack of actual regulation.
AWS's growth doesn't come from courting small random devs working on side projects.
Tell me you're Shadow IT without telling me you're Shadow IT.
I know legitimizing shadow IT is still the value proposition of AWS to a lot of organizations. But it sucks if that's the reason the rest of us can't get an optional feature.
I'd fire a box up at home instead but at ~£35/mo I can never quite find the motivation compared to spending the time hacking on one of my actual projects instead.
(I do suspect if I ever -did- find the motivation I'd wonder why I hadn't done so sooner; so it goes)
Having one AWS account where you actually run stuff, and one that follows the rule of "if it can't be paved and recreated from github, don't put it there" is exactly how a lot of people do it anyway.
This is an interesting point and something I can totally imagine happening! I guess if you have fixed spending limits in a large enough organisation, you lose some of the benefit of cloud infrastructure. Convincing a (metaphorically) remote Finance department to increase your fixed spending limit is probably a tougher task than ordering a load of new hardware!
Yada yada yada, that's the same old excuse the cloud providers trot out.
Now, forgive me for my clearly Nobel Prize winning levels of intellect when I point out the following...
Number one: You would not have to turn on the hard spend limit if such functionality were to be provided.
Number two: You could enable customers to set up hard limits IN CONJUNCTION WITH alerts and soft limits, i.e. hitting the hard limit would be the last resort. A bit like trains hitting the buffers at a station ... that is preferable to killing people at the end of the platform. The same with hard spend limits, hitting the limit is better than waking up in the morning to a $1m cloud bill.
I would bet that the reason they don't implement it is not that they're being "shady" but because they don't care about the hobbyists and personal projects and implementing hard spending limits would be a huge, complicated feature to implement. And even if they did put in the huge effort to do it, individuals would still manage to not use it and the steady trickle of viral "I accidentally spent X thousands bucks on AWS" stories would continue as usual.
That's been one of the more interesting inside baseball facts I've learned here.
Actually there is a third category, those who care. I will grant you it is a rare category but it is there.
One example name: Exoscale[1]
Swiss cloud provider, they offer:
(a) hard spend limits via account pre-pay balances (or you can also have post-pay if you want the "usual" cloud "surprises included" payment model).
(b) good customer service that doesn't hide behind "community forums"
No I am not an Exoscale shill, and no I don't work for Exoscale. I just know some of their happy customers. :)
What would you suggest me instead?
I see Hetzner and maybe OVH could cost significantly less.
Actually looks like with Hetzner I would get better specs at 115 eur per month. With 16 vCP, 64GB ram, 360 GB SSD.
That's crazy, I didn't realize there's such a huge difference.
I think your comment is actually impressively valuable to me...
I'm going to bring it all over during the weekend. That's really exciting to find out much cheaper prices, because I've had disk space running out constantly on my DO. I do all my docker builds, files, databases and everything there as well. And for side projects I usually value all the cache and development speed as opposed to trying to optimize everything to take min performance and storage.
Also I spend way too much on Supabase. I think also $300+/month and increasing, I will bring that over and self host with a large SSD. I think at this point I prefer self hosting a postgres anyway to Supabase. I just tried it for a while, but the costs started going up.
Thank you so much.
Edit: there's some limits in Hetzner initially, so it might take few months before I can actually migrate.
i use them to create a small test stack to look at it for a day or two.
then go through, delete all of the resources, put what i need into terraform etc.
has worked well for me in the past.
but yeah, i would never blindly use aws tools to magically put something into production.
I also have an account with L̵i̵n̵u̵x̵A̵c̵a̵d̵e̵m̵y̵ A̵C̵l̵o̵u̵d̵G̵u̵r̵u̵ PluralSight: and while the courses are very variable (and mostly exam cramming focused) it has their Cloud Playground as a super nice feature.
I get four hours to play around with setting things up and then it will all get automatically torn down for me. There's no cloud bill, just my subscription (I think that's about $400pa at the moment - can't check right now as annoyingly their stuff is blocked by our corporate network!) It has a few limitations, but none that have been problems for me with exploring stuff so far.
To make my case: just ponder the opposite: "What would an honest version of AWS do?". They would address the concerns publicly, document their progress towards fixing the issue, and even try to determine who was overcharged due to their faulty code, and offer them some compensation.
"We're too big to fix our own code" is, sadly, taken from the MS playbook (IIRC, something like that was made public after the breach of MS manager mailboxes after the whole Azure breach fiasco that was discovered by, IIRC, the DOJ that paid to have access to logs).
AWS prices are ridiculous. I pay OVH $18/mo for a 4-core, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD dedicated server. The cheapest on AWS would be r6g.xlarge, which costs $145/mo. Almost 10x.
Yes, AWS hardware is usually better, but they give me 4 "vCPUs". OVH gives me 4 "real" CPU cores. There's a LOT of difference. E even if my processor is worse than AWS', I still prefer 4 real CPUs than virtual ones, which are overbooked by AWS and rarely give me 100% of their power.
OVH gives me 300 Mbit, while r6g.xlarge gives "up to" 10 Gbit. But still, 10x? 300 Mbit gives me ~37 mb/s. I use a CDN for large stuff: HTML, images, JS, anyways...
There are certainly cases where AWS is the go-to option, but I think it's a small minority where it actually makes sense.
> The spending limit in Azure prevents spending over your credit amount. [1]
Once it's your money miraculously the spending limit is no longer available...
> The spending limit isn’t available for subscriptions with commitment plans or with pay-as-you-go pricing. [1]
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cost-management-bill...
There are stories online of folks getting their accounts deactivated or not even getting approved.
But not all applications are critical, and the company deploying those applications should be able to differentiate between what's critical and what's not. If they're unable to, that's their fault. If there's no option to set hard limits, that's AWS' fault.
Again, Amazon isn't stepping up to protect users from themselves. They could do a lot more.
Given that all your usage and traffic other than that at the limit request should not be gated or limited, why would you want someone else injecting additional complexity and bottleneck risk inline?
Determine your own graceful envelope, implement accordingly.
My point was, if that's a reason to have unbounded spending, why allow me to spin up a service that can get CPU or RAM bound?
> Determine your own graceful envelope, implement accordingly.
Which most people do have, but we then also want an "ungraceful" backstop — trains have both a brake and a dead man's switch.
Then apply the hard limit in the billing code. If it took a minute or two to shut off all the instances, maybe the customer's bill should have been $1.001M instead of $1M, but cap the bill to $1M anyway. Given their profit margins of x,000% I think they can afford the lost pennies.
Many companies achieve non-trivial things at scale. Pretty much every good engineer I speak to will list out all the incredibly challenging thing they did. And follow it up with "however, this component in Billing is 100x more difficult than that!"
I've worked in Billing and I'd say a huge number of issues come from the business logic. When you add a feature after-the-fact, you'll find a lot of technical and business blockers that prevent you doing the most obvious path. I strongly suspect AWS realised they passed this point of no return some time ago and now the effort to implement it vastly outweighs any return they'd ever hope to see.
And, let's be honest, there will be no possible implementation of this that will satisfy even a significant minority of the people demanding this feature. Everyone things they're saying the same thing but the second you dig into the detail and the use-case, everyone will expect something slightly (but critically) different.
Simply claiming this does not make it true. Anyway, the original claim was simply that it is not trivial. This is what is known as moving the goalposts, look it up.
> let's be honest, there will be no possible implementation of this
Prefixing some assertion with "let's be honest" does not prove it or even support it in any way. If you don't have any actual supporting arguments, there's nothing to discuss, to be honest.
Excuse me for a minute, I have to go reset my password that expires every 10 days and can not match any previous password and enter my enterprise mandated sms 2fa because authenticator scary -- woops my SharePoint session expired after 120 seconds of inactivity let me just redo that -- oh what's that my corporate vpn disconnected because I don't have the mandatory patches applied, let me just restart -- Woah would you look at that my network interface doesn't work anymore after that update -- yes yes I'm sorry I know my activity light on MS Teams turned yellow for 5 minutes I'm working on it, just gotta do these other 12 steps so I can reset my password to -- oh look it's time to fill out the monthly company values survey, what's that, it's due by end of day?
The people "claiming" this actually worked on it. I read a post from HN just yesterday talking about the complexities of billing. Look it up.
> If you don't have any actual supporting arguments
You can read other responses in this post. Look it up.
I don't believe that for a minute.
You know why ?
Let's turn it on its head. What happens if the credit card on your AWS account expires or is frozen ?
You think AWS are going to continue letting you rack up money with no card to charge against ?
I betcha they'll freeze your AWS assets the nanosecond they can't get a charge against the card.
The mechanism for customer-defined hard limits is basically no different.
Comcast (mostly) disagrees, you have a 1.2 TB data cap and "After that, blocks of 50 GB will automatically be added to your account for an additional fee of $10 each plus tax." They do have a limit of $100 on these charges per month at least.
Like many times more than you've ever even spent with them.
I mean it's like 6 months of that before you even get your first non-standard form email.
OTOH for example the default quota of 55PB (yes, go check it) for your daily limit of data extraction from GBQ is funny, until you make a costly mistake, or some forked process turns zombie.
This is predatory practice, that I can't set up MONEY limits for cloud services.