Trudeau government bans TikTok from operating in Canada

To be clear, they're not banning the app, they're banning ByteDance from having offices in Canada

But what's the point? It's more common for a government to force companies to have an office in the country to exercise political or legal control (see for example recent news about Twitter's Brazil office). Why banning them from having one?

What is the strategy here? Why does banning ByteDance from having offices in Canada do anything?

Isn't it all rather self-defeating, then?

ByteDance will keep no data in Canada, will not employ any Canadians, will not report any information to Canadian authorities, and will have no reason to comply with Canadian warrants or court orders. (Or even judgments.) At the same time, all Canadians can continue to use the app.

On balance, this seems bad for Canada and great for ByteDance.

Could it be the start of a series of legislation to make it impossible to operate the app which would be more palatable to the public than a ban?

1: Ban presence in the country

2: Add data provision requirements that personal information be stored in the country.

3: TikTok can’t meet requirements? Well that’s on them, guess they can’t operate here.

Can .ca App Store still offer the app legally if no biz entity operating in Canada? If no, then it's the same as ban the app

> On balance, this seems bad for Canada and great for ByteDance.

It's hard to balance anything until they explain why they did it. So far they claim they aren't at liberty to share but claim it was bad enough to make a very unprecedented move like this.

> What is the strategy here

1. Show the current government is doing something after the CSE said the Canadian government has been breached by China's MSS [0]

2. A response to China for breaching Canada's systems.

3. A way to get a quick win to make bipartisan China hawks across the border in the US happy.

[0] - https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cse-cyber-threats-china-1.7...

It goes both ways.

... and Bytedance will not have any recourse if Canada bans the app.

Most app developers don't have legal entities in all the countries their app is distributed. Apple is the merchant of record for apps sold and distributed through its app store.

"We came to the conclusion that these activities that were conducted in Canada by TikTok and their offices would be injurious to national security,"

Really not saying anything, but that's the line they are going with.

What if ByteDance operating outside of Canada stores the data in ca-central-1?

The only reason I think they would do this is because of espionage, so you want to remove the offices but keep the app. But there is no proof provided within the article.

Presumably the only espionage asset ByteDance has is the data it keeps on Canadian users. (Which probably includes information on arctic military installations, etc.)

TikTok is still going to collect that data, and it will be kept in China, far beyond Canada's reach. To remove concern over the data, I reckon you'd go about it backwards: Get rid of the app, which is up to no good. Keep the offices, so that they can be spied on or forced into transparency via the courts.

As far as I can find, Bytedance is one of only three companies ordered to shutter their Canadian operations. The other two are both involved in the drone detection space.

This makes the most sense if Canada expects (or has) Canadian troops secretly deployed somewhere. And that is one sobering thought.

ByteDance can't sell advertising in Canada. They can't make money off of Canadian customers, that has to hurt, although it is small potatoes compared to being banned in California, let alone the whole of the USA.

Speaks volumes about perceived power balance between governments and corporations. You'd think that forcing a foreign company to operate through a national subsidiary would be beneficial to the government in terms of intelligence/counterintelligence, but apparently they worry it would be more beneficial to the company and/or its home country.

Intelligence agencies aren't known for their history of providing proof to the public. This review has been in process for over a year though.

That means that users can’t be advertised to?

What do they think is happening inside TikTok offices? It's not like they're embassies filled with spies.

It means Canadian companies can't buy ads from ByteDance. Canadian content creators can't receive money from ByteDance. That is not a win for ByteDance, who I assume wants (a) content from Canadian tiktokers and (b) wants ad money from Canadian companies.

> ByteDance can't sell advertising in Canada.

I'm not sure I follow (maybe there's other details you know about that aren't in the article, or I missed it). I don't think there's anything preventing a Canadian company from paying a foreign company for ads? In theory I'd have to self-assess PST maybe but I order stuff (both physical and digital) from foreign companies with no Canadian presence on a pretty regular basis.

Why couldn't it be?

Canada has an extremely generous, massively exploited foreign worker program (it is actually one of the reasons this government is profoundly unpopular). ByteDance, like every other company, can unilaterally declare that they need to bring in an entirely foreign staff and get it rubber stamped. Given the company's alleged closeness with the party, using it as an easy vehicle to drop loads of intelligence workers of various sorts in Canada would be logical. Similarly China has a thing with running intimidation tactics against Chinese ex-pats living in Western countries.

It's not impossible, but you'd think they come up with a better front company than bytedance, of all companies. It's like China accusing that McDonalds is a spy front.

Perhaps, but China really doesn't have a lot of companies with offices in the West. When China tries to buy Western countries they are often blocked for the same national security reasons, as has happened several times in Canada.

A nondescript consumer appliance or clothing "sales office" is infinitely better than bytedance, a company that has received significant flak in the media. The Biden administration's policy of "small yard, high fence" means that unless you're trying to import chips, AI tech, drones, or battery tech, you're probably fine. Nobody is going to blink an eye at some Chinese company trying to sell rice cookers.

Small credit cards transactions fly under the radar. But a big business with a big budget won't be able to advertise on Tiktok. That's why companies establish these offices. They are essentially import/export offices that allow the flow of money out of said country.

> great for ByteDance

If it were that great for them, they wouldn't be present in Canada in the first place.

yes, Chinese ppl are Chinese spies. This is Western values. Chinese ppl also breathed the same air, you want ban that too? It is national security risk, you are breathing the same air a commie just breathed. I find it really interesting how ppl can just think "could", I feel you watch too much war movies. Talk to real people more, I think you will find that ppl are more the same than different, and we all want peace, good life, that is it.

Oh all Chinese are spies. China can turn cars into killing machines, Westerners really watch too much science fiction and cold war movies. This never crossed our minds this could be a thing and no one is this boring and morally bad to do this. But seems Westerners really like to entertain these ideas.

Sunlight and transparency are great disinfectants for evil. Good only triumphs over evil if evil is exposed but evil wins if it’s allowed to remain in the shadows forever. Almost no one believes what they’re doing is evil — nearly everyone believes they’re a good person (even terrorists who have killed and taken hostages, as hostage negotiators recall in their books) but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If the intel agencies can’t even convincingly share with congress reasons with enough merit that can stand up to scrutiny, then fuck em. Do what’s right instead. No one voted for any agency, intel or not, or any deep state to make all of the decisions of the democratic republic. America has 3 branches of government. No 4th branch for good reason. Transparency and sunlight are great disinfectants and there should be more of both. Transparency is needed to make the best decisions.

Didn't notice this comment previously as it happened days after.

However since the government has revealed that ByteDance employees in Canada -- Chinese nationals -- have acted against the national security of Canada. And just to be clear, this has happened again, and again, and again, and again. This is a countless line of Chinese nationals and their organizations operating as fronts for the Chinese government.

>Oh all Chinese are spies.

Nope, but enough are that it's a recurring problem.