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371 points greggyb | 14 comments | | HN request time: 1.52s | source | bottom
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KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41977135[source]
He's underrated in the sense that a lot of CEOs of his era completely destroyed their companies, see Intel, GE, GM, Yahoo, etc and he didn't. So that's already a win, he set up the company in a decent position so that when someone with more vision takes over they'll have something to work with, even if he didn't have the talent to pull things off himself. He had a couple of wins (Azure, Office 365) along with many many losses, and they're good enough to secure him a 6/10 on my ratings.
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greggyb ◴[] No.41977236[source]
If you trust the article, then Azure and O365 are each, independently, easily Fortune 100 companies if separated. These "couple of wins along with many many losses" are some of the most valuable products in the world.

Imagine a VC fund that invested in a few dozen product companies, two of which were Azure and O365. Is that a 6/10 VC company? Why is the logic different for a CEO making bets for a company's next several decades?

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KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41977319[source]
Because the company has more strategic resources than a VC, and has need to defend existing businesses.

MS should've been able to simply just extend their OS monopoly into all platforms and all architectures, but they didn't, and to a vast swath of the world have become irrelevant, and worse, have lost their ability to become relevant.

It's a decline from being the monopolist to simply a player, sure they executed well in enterprise sales and was fast in picking up OpenAI, but they have lost the ability to use their strategic resources to save xbox, help azure overcome competition, or push a mixer or Surface or whatever.

Edit: For people who don't understand the last sentence think about the way that O365 was able to help MS push Teams to stave off Zoom and others despite being objectively trash. MS should've been able to keep control of the internet, but they lost their moat to Google (Chrome), and the same story for various consumer products. Bing was a decent win but with a better consumer story they should've also been able to threaten social and youtube and so on. But now they're completely irrelevant there.

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1. greggyb ◴[] No.41977712[source]
> MS should've been able to simply just extend their OS monopoly into all platforms and all architectures, but they didn't, and to a vast swath of the world have become irrelevant, and worse, have lost their ability to become relevant.

Microsoft is, pretty famously, on the receiving end of one of the most significant antitrust judgments in modern history. Choosing to further a monopoly seems that it would be a phenomenally bad decision for the company.

Despite that, Windows remains the dominant operating system for businesses worldwide. So I would argue that the OS is far from "irrelevant".

Beyond the OS, they are comfortably #2 in the public cloud market, with little threat from #3. Indeed, #1 has been relatively stagnant in market share, while Azure has been steadily growing.[0] It seems that a consistently growing market share in such a large industry shows that not only are they relevant, but they are becoming more so, and have not "lost their ability to become relevant". Additionally, it seems that they are "overcoming competition".

> It's a decline from being the monopolist to simply a player ....

> MS should've been able to keep control of the internet, but they lost their moat to Google (Chrome),

They legally could not maintain that monopoly. Again, see the antitrust ruling. The antitrust case was about the impact on Netscape, and was too late to save Netscape. But it is a pretty straight line from a case about bundling IE with the OS.

To be clear, the finding in this case originally held that Microsoft needed to be broken up.[1] Microsoft won on appeal, because of impropriety by the original judge in the case, but the appeals court upheld all findings of fact.[2]

Much of what you are saying Microsoft should have been able to do on the basis of their OS monopoly would have been begging for further antitrust action.

> Bing was a decent win

Bing, on its own, would be the 12th largest tech company in the world, per the original article.

And Microsoft is worth $3T today, largely on the basis of investment under Ballmer (and continued strong execution under Satya). Is the argument that Microsoft should instead be a $10T or $100T market cap company today if you graded Ballmer better than a D?

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/967365/worldwide-cloud-i...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...

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2. ytoawwhra92 ◴[] No.41977955[source]
> > MS should've been able to simply just extend their OS monopoly into all platforms and all architectures, but they didn't, and to a vast swath of the world have become irrelevant, and worse, have lost their ability to become relevant.

> Microsoft is, pretty famously, on the receiving end of one of the most significant antitrust judgments in modern history. Choosing to further a monopoly seems that it would be a phenomenally bad decision for the company.

They tried and failed to extend their OS to other platforms and architectures many times. That they weren't successful wasn't due to some big brained decision to avoid antitrust issues. They just couldn't execute.

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3. KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41977986[source]
I don't buy the "MS purposefully let IE die to avoid anti-trust" story. Ballmer was an enterprise sales guy, no wonder his enterprise software business did great, IE lacked focus and died. Just keeping IE around, they didn't have to kill Google, but just keeping it around would've been interesting in 2020 as they can conceivably use it to move onto rivals. Similarly, windows phone didn't die because of anti-trust but because of Ballmer failure. Windows server is a fail because of Ballmer. Yes MS should've been a ~6T company today. Operating systems were their territory and Ballmer lost ground. There are 6ish other major battlefields: search, e-commerce, social, consumer devices, enterprise software, cloud. Ballmer lost 4/6 despite major advantages going into the last 4 of these.

I'll give credit to Ballmer for being early enough on supporting Azure where it's ahead of GCP, but for how well Azure is doing now that's on Nadella.

Am I supposed to give Ballmer credit for Bing? I'm not going to do so. With enough money any CEO would've been able to crank out a Bing (Same way I'm not impressed by Tim Cook's Apple Watch).

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4. kfajdsl ◴[] No.41978421[source]
Was there ever a world where a proprietary OS could win out against Linux? Or for that matter, a proprietary DB as opposed to MySQL/Postgres.
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5. KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41978691{3}[source]
If it's better, by tying it in with your other products, by making it compatible with the market, and by building an ecosystem moat on top of it. You can also lower the price to capture marketshare. Plenty of proprietary systems won despite being late and the open source system had become incumbent. See discord/slack, MATLAB, Spotify.

If Windows Server had a better DX, had supported everything Linux did, AND had proprietary features on top of that, it would've done well I reckon.

6. greggyb ◴[] No.41978751[source]
> I don't buy the "MS purposefully let IE die to avoid anti-trust" story

I don't know who you'd buy it from, certainly not me. If that's what you've read into my comment, that is reflective of your perspective, not mine. IE was never that good. It was bundled with the predominant operating system, so had massive market share. As soon as Microsoft had to open the OS more and draw a line between OS and IE, it was pretty much inevitable that there would be other browsers. And too-aggressive positioning of IE would be highly legible to regulators.

I agree that, absent regulatory scrutiny, Microsoft could have flexed muscle here to effect different outcomes in the general internet space. I disagree that such a decision would be a good idea for Microsoft in the climate of the aughts.

Server market share is tougher to find, but it appears that Microsoft captures a large majority of revenue in the server OS space. I know the install base proportion is smaller than the revenue proportion, but it seems to me that they are capturing most of the market willing to pay for a server OS.[0]

As to your 7 major battlefields and Microsoft's major advantages:

1. Operating systems. Most other major OS vendors collapsed or were collapsing in the 90s. It seems naive to expect that there would continue to be no pressure on the OS front. Part of their dominance was circumstantial. Nevertheless, they continued to dominate desktop market share and server market share (both by revenue). Losing install share to OSes that people don't pay for is expected, especially as those options improve.

Apple came over to x86, making MacOS (again, an OS that people don't pay directly for) much more viable, because application developers no longer had to target two ISAs.

And mobile came to the fore. Consumer devices is a separate category, though.

Overall, I'd consider this a win for Microsoft and a continuing area of dominance, in the face of many new entrants and threats: ChromeOS; tablets becoming a viable option; Linux becoming usable for laypeople; and much of computing moving to the browser such that the OS doesn't matter as much, yet Windows still dominates when OS doesn't matter.

2. Search. Google was already positioned for market dominance in the early 2000s. Microsoft began their indexing project in the early 2000s. Other players entered and left the market. Amazon had a search engine, and they are all about the consumer market (especially before AWS). That folded in the mid aughts. Yahoo collapsed. AOL, Excite, Lycos, and many others failed. Yahoo now uses Bing's index. DuckDuckGo uses Bing's index.

Bing is a solid #2 in search, earning $10Bs annually. That is an entire business.

Microsoft started from a disadvantage on search and is #2. #2 is not a loss. Also definitely not an overwhelming victory, but the world is not binary. Writing off a business with $10Bs of revenue as a loss seems absurd ... may we all be so blessed as to lose like this.

3. E-commerce. Amazon was already positioned for dominance and was solely focused on this for the early aughts, and primarily focused on this for the duration of the aughts. Microsoft had no major presence here.

To make significant headway, Microsoft would have had to go against one of the most single-minded and aggressive companies that was out there. (Amazon is less single-minded today). And we know what Amazon's successful strategy is in retail, and that is essentially no profit. Microsoft, both in terms of its corporate culture and in terms of its major shareholders, would never have been able to compete with Amazon in that way.

Microsoft had no major advantage here. This is certainly not a win, but they didn't want a piece of it anyway.

4. Social. Do we count messengers as social media? If yes, then yeah Microsoft had MSN messenger. If we don't count messaging, then they had no specific expertise or advantage here. In fact, many of their attempts at more lighthearted computing were panned: clippy, Microsoft Bob, Comic Sans. Microsoft has always been nerdy and never cool until others made nerds cool.

Regardless, they purchased Skype and LinkedIn and have a combined MAU of ~1.2B, putting them comfortably in the top 10 of social media companies.[1] I'll note that this list includes Teams, but I'm going to count that as enterprise software, because it is included with almost every O365 SKU.

LinkedIn was a Satya purchase, so Ballmer can't get credit there. Nevertheless, I wouldn't argue that Microsoft had a major advantage for social media. I'd agree that they lost in this space.

Arguably you could put github in here, too, but also a Satya acquisition.

5. Consumer devices. Microsoft is a software company to its bones. Windows was a definite advantage here. But Microsoft does not have a strong history of device manufacture to lean on. They tried to acquire for this with Nokia. And yeah, they failed here.

Again, though, they were against one of the most single-minded and aggressive companies out there, this time Apple. And Apple already had the pedigree for prestige consumer devices. Apple was defining hip and cool with regard to technology through the aughts. Again, Microsoft is neither.

Additionally, they were up against another competitor for whom smart phone market share was an existential concern, Google. Google does not have the single-minded focus of Apple, but when it comes to threats to their core business (selling ads), they can execute well enough.

Microsoft does not have the single-minded focus of Apple, nor did they have the fundamental imperative to make something work on mobile that Google had. Still, Microsoft should have done better here, and in fact Windows Phone OS and devices were largely well reviewed. Nevertheless, they couldn't make headway against their rivals.

Microsoft had an advantage here and lost.

6. Enterprise software. Microsoft was the dominant player and remains the dominant player in this space. O365 is undisputed. You will pry Excel from many people's cold, dead hands. Microsoft may not be cool, but no other tech company has a product on ESPN. The Excel championship is something else.

And I will note, specifically, that O365 began under Ballmer.

Microsoft is also a huge player in data platforms. They have specific product wins and losses, but as a whole, they do very well in this space. Data is a specific niche of mine, and I can tell you that there is no other vendor than Microsoft that companies will routinely go all-in on for their data platform. Don't get me wrong, this is not the norm, but I only ever see it happen on Microsoft, never for another vendor's platform all-in.

I covered Windows Server above, but again I will note that they capture a large majority of server OS revenue share (which I argue is the category to measure this in).

Microsoft is a dominant player in this space, and I would count this as a win. It was part of their core business, and that business tripled sales and doubled profit under Ballmer.

7. Cloud. Amazon moved first. Microsoft followed quickly. They are #2 in the market and growing fast. Google is no threat to either Azure or AWS. Alibaba probably will be in the next 10 years.

Azure would not exist in the way it does today without significant investment under Ballmer.

#2 for a second mover (using "second" as "non-first", here) is not at all a loss. And threatening to overtake the first mover is a powerful position to be in.

I expect you'll disagree that any #2 position is worthwhile, or at least that seems to be your stance.

Regardless, I'd put the counts as:

Advantage: 4: OS, Enterprise software, cloud, consumer devices

Disadvantage: Search, E-commerce, Social

Competed: 6: OS, Enterprise software, cloud, consumer devices, search, social (questionable)

Success: 4/5: OS, Enterprise software, Cloud, Search, Social (social only by acquisition, mostly post-Ballmer, but they were in a position to make multi-billion dollar acquisitions, so Ballmer can't have ruined things)

Failure: 1/2: Consumer devices, Social (if you want to argue that only Satya's acquisitions count, and no credit toward Ballmer).

Did not compete: E-commerce

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/915085/global-server-sha...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_platforms_with_...

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7. greggyb ◴[] No.41978757{3}[source]
See my sibling comment. Windows Server dominates server OS revenue share at ~70%. They get most of the money that people are willing to spend on server OSes.
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8. greggyb ◴[] No.41978866[source]
Windows runs in more places than it probably should. And the OS is just fine on other platforms. Windows on ARM works quite well. As I understand it, it worked just fine on Itanium. NT launched with support for PowerPC. I'm sure RISC-V support will be there pretty quickly. NT was designed for this sort of portability.

Most user software is not ready for the transition. Microsoft doesn't impose the same kind of control over its application ecosystem as Apple does. This prevents Microsoft from being able to make architectural shifts like Apple has. Arguably, this more open and flexible ecosystem (and bending over backward compatibility) has been one of the driving factors in Windows's popularity over MacOS. I have no strong opinion about which is a better business strategy.

9. KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41979094{3}[source]
> I don't know who you'd buy it from, certainly not me. If that's what you've read into my comment, that is reflective of your perspective, not mine. IE was never that good. It was bundled with the predominant operating system, so had massive market share. As soon as Microsoft had to open the OS more and draw a line between OS and IE, it was pretty much inevitable that there would be other browsers. And too-aggressive positioning of IE would be highly legible to regulators.

I was not thinking about being more aggressive with bundling, but was commenting on the quality of IE. Not sure why you're giving a pass on IE sucking. It's not a coincidence that Ballmer, the Enterprise sales guy, developed an excellent enterprise sales machine at Microsoft. If he were a good tech guy he would've developed good tech there too. So yes, that Microsoft's tech sucked is on him.

There's a certain inertia to a huge company, if we're talking about executive wins I expect something above what I consider the bare minimum. For example everyone agrees that Intel is a failed company, but if you actually look at them they still have majority marketshare of x86 CPUs in both client and server. So would you say that they successfully defended their traditional business or would you call them a failure? I think it's pretty clear that if you strip away everything else about MS, and just look at Windows by its lonesome, it would be considered a loss today. It's only bigger by dint of the entire market being larger. But in the market it has lost a lot of power vs the day Ballmer started.

So

1. OS - Loss IMO.

2. Search - Loss, similarly to above Bing is a bare minimum for what I expect a company of this size to do. Look at Sogou vs Baidu in China for example for what other companies are able to achieve. But all in all I'm knocking Ballmer less for Bing than for how late Bing was. For 9 years of his time as CEO we had trash MSN as MS's search engine and the default through IE. Gave away all that time to Google to build incumbency, develop an ecosystem around gmail, etc, and grow their cash position. IE was a huge advantage for a long time... but by the time Bing came out it had eroded and Google Chrome was released. Microsoft was in a great advantageous position due to their Windows monopoly but acted too late to serve relevant products.

3. E-commerce - Loss, I wasn't thinking about competing with Amazon but more the Windows Store, bookings.com, airbnb, and steam. Why did the windows store take until the app store to come out to copy them? Why did steam come out in 2003 and Microsoft did nothing? It's because Ballmer isn't smart enough to understand how these things work. By the time windows store came out it was very late, and once again the software sucked. Owning the operating system was an advantage that a good CEO could've made something of, and he didn't.

4. Social - Loss, yeah MSN was a huge deal, along with windows to push it and later acquisition of skype, MS certainly did try. You can also consider something like Steam or xbox Live to be a social network. Regardless went nowhere and loss of opportunity. Certainly he made acquisitions too late and failed to make much of the social networks he had. Also anyone could've bought Instagram, anyone could've bought Youtube, he just didn't. Bought Skype instead. Sure after him there's more acquisitions but it has nothing to do with this discussion really.

5. Consumer devices - Loss, this one I'm most willing to give him a pass on actually. MS is mostly a software company, and partnerships are hard. But Zune was an alright product, and here is mostly a marketing fail. But wouldn't you place blame for bad marketing on the CEO? You can also imagine there's a lot more you can do with Zune. Microsoft had xbox too but never tried to get these parts together, letting Nintendo DS take the handheld market. Today zune is dead and xbox is not successful.

6. Enterprise Software - Unequivocal win, probably the best thing Ballmer did and most of his score.

7. Cloud - Win, acted not too late and was okay with it, Nadella fixed it though.

So definitely I would put E-commerce and social up into "advantaged but loss" and I tried to explain why I count search and OS as loss.

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10. greggyb ◴[] No.41979169{4}[source]
> For example everyone agrees that Intel is a failed company, but if you actually look at them they still have majority marketshare of x86 CPUs in both client and server. So would you say that they successfully defended their traditional business or would you call them a failure?

I do not think we live in the same world. As one data point, the majority of analysts still list Intel as a buy or a hold.[0] In the very same industry, AMD showed us that it can take more than a decade to turn around a poor architectural turn in semiconductor manufacturing. Their stock price peaked at the beginning of 2006 and then were in the doldrums until 2017-2018 (depending when you want to count their return). It may well turn out that we are witnessing Intel's death spiral, but to claim that with certainty, and further to ascribe that belief to "everyone" tells me that we see the world incredibly differently.

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/analysis/

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11. KaoruAoiShiho ◴[] No.41979318{5}[source]
What does analyst have to do with anything? Intel can still be a buy even if it's failed because it's either very cheap or there's the possibility of geopolitics or acquisitions. In fact being failed sometimes makes it even easier to buy.

It's obviously failed even beyond the massive share loss in the semi industry. It's stock price is down 60% since 2018 (not even a particularly interesting year), and its value is now literally lower than its book price. That's when you know everyone agrees it's a piece of junk.

12. bigstrat2003 ◴[] No.41979494{4}[source]
> For example everyone agrees that Intel is a failed company...

You are literally the first person I've ever seen say this. It is definitely not true that everyone agrees with you on that.

13. ◴[] No.41980437[source]
14. sirjaz ◴[] No.41983009{4}[source]
In addition on-prem Windows Server share is 70%+ as of 2023 of all Server usage.