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157 points milgrim | 31 comments | | HN request time: 1.624s | source | bottom
1. milgrim ◴[] No.41904412[source]
For some context:

The same Boeing satellite bus already experienced a major issue some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800

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2. api ◴[] No.41904538[source]
The complete collapse of Boeing needs to be studied.
replies(1): >>41904590 #
3. SteveNuts ◴[] No.41904590[source]
They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s.
replies(2): >>41904667 #>>41905244 #
4. dylan604 ◴[] No.41904667{3}[source]
You joke, but it absolutely should. Boeing is a great example of "when all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail". When MBAs are left in charge with no guardrails, this is what can happen. That's a great thing to teach to new MBAs. Every field has this potential pitfall. When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen. Know when to say when.
replies(5): >>41904850 #>>41904952 #>>41905188 #>>41905552 #>>41907526 #
5. schiffern ◴[] No.41904815[source]
I know the Boeing connection is the most "sexy" cause, so people are probably going to run with it anyway, but I also have to wonder about a space debris collision. GEO is already quite polluted, and the "graveyard orbits" commonly used have been shown to be inadequate.[1]

Can anyone tell whether (at 60 degrees East and at 4:30 UTC October 19) the satellite was passing through the intersection with the main plane of lunar perturbed debris? This would hint at a possible debris strike.

Sadly I can't seem to find a 3D satellite visualization that lets you go back in time. :-(

[1] https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2008/03/Spacecraft...

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6. pmontra ◴[] No.41904848[source]
I was not familiar with the term satellite bus. I kind of guessed what it is but not really. Here's the link to the Wikipedia page. There might be a link to the Boeing bus in there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_bus

7. mschuster91 ◴[] No.41904850{4}[source]
> Know when to say when.

People warned about exactly what happened already back in the time when the merger happened that introduced beancounter culture to Boeing.

The problem was, as always, no one listens to the warners and the whiners when there is money to be made.

replies(1): >>41905783 #
8. SteveNuts ◴[] No.41904952{4}[source]
Yeah I didn't really know how to articulate nuance of the sarcasm in my comment, I fully agree it should.

But it's such a massive clusterfuck for Boeing that it seems like MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up.

replies(1): >>41905214 #
9. mppm ◴[] No.41905057[source]
Maybe. But it's probably just Boeing :) This was a fairly young satellite, launched in 2016, and beset with propulsion problems from the start. It was also the second of a new series, and the first one has already failed as well.
10. milgrim ◴[] No.41905064[source]
The more interesting part for me is that a satellite just exploded, that it's made by Boeing is just the cherry on top.
replies(1): >>41906303 #
11. phkahler ◴[] No.41905188{4}[source]
>> When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen.

Highly optimized systems are fragile. They work well so long as everything stays the same. Optimizing for cost will compromise other things. Quality is not a varnish to be applied after you make something, it's designed into the product and production process from the beginning - by people who understand such things.

12. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.41905214{5}[source]
>They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s.

As if it wasn't the result of what has been taught for decades, now coming of age more bigly than ever ;)

>MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up.

Who would do the reforming though?

Academic leaders? That could be like having the inmates running the asylum :)

From the ground up?

If you're not careful they could end up building an insane new institution at a massive scale in an image grandiose enough that it could crush GE or something ;)

replies(1): >>41905377 #
13. psunavy03 ◴[] No.41905244{3}[source]
If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way. Same with only HR, or any other field. MBAs are not the problem. Shitty MBAs and shitty leadership are the problem. MBAs aren't there to screw people over; they're there to sustainably run a company. Sure, the bad ones screw people over in the name of nickel-and-diming. But still.

And no, I'm not an MBA . . .

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14. SteveNuts ◴[] No.41905377{6}[source]
Yeah this is exactly why I added the /s

I don't know the answer but hopefully "the powers that be" take a really close look at this situation.

Every company in the US should do some serious introspection.

15. baud147258 ◴[] No.41905410{4}[source]
> If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way

Do you have an idea of what would be the failure mode(s)?

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16. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.41905502{4}[source]
No doubt about it, the widespread problem is having non-leaders in leadership positions.

The underlying defect is a system which allows absolutely poor performers to advance based on an overwhelming focus on greed and ambition for power.

When it has become more popularly acceptable to allow it to become so.

The most unsuitable candidates for leading people are what the mainstream finds acceptable or even desirable once the culture shift swings this far.

With either a reduced number of key positions that can afford to be occupied by a dud (or worse), or an increased number of limited-ability competitors prevailing on the basis of their dedication to leveraging greed and even treachery, the kind of leader that's really needed is less likely to advance from entry-level at all.

What would really help would be a culture that inhibits those unsuitable individuals from arising toward those limited number of key positions to begin with.

17. kjs3 ◴[] No.41905552{4}[source]
If you get your MBA at Emory University, you learn about the New Coke fiasco. In a building named after Roberto C. Goizueta. The Coke executive responsible for New Coke. I suspect the irony is often lost on the latest cadre of MBA grads.
replies(1): >>41906147 #
18. api ◴[] No.41905666{5}[source]
If engineers run the restaurant the food is excellent but the menu is confusing and there are no customers because nobody knows the restaurant exists.

If sales/marketing runs the restaurant it's full but there is no food. The menu is beautiful and shows all kinds of dishes nobody knows how to make.

If MBAs run the restaurant it's full of people paid to be there long enough to be counted and reported up to the investors and the food is purchased from the McDonalds next door and relabeled and resold at 3X the price. Nobody will ever come back but it doesn't matter. The metrics from this exercise are used to raise money to open three more restaurants across the street from convenient sources of cheap fast food. This novel model of running restaurants is written up in Harvard Business Review as an excellent example of an arbitrage business model.

If artists run the restaurant they make and eat the food themselves and then leave.

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19. weard_beard ◴[] No.41905783{5}[source]
The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time. If the whiners can point to an example of white collar criminal enforcement their complaints suddenly have teeth.
replies(1): >>41906825 #
20. ahoka ◴[] No.41906147{5}[source]
They had actually better sales after the whole thing.
replies(1): >>41908789 #
21. ahoka ◴[] No.41906270{4}[source]
Like the CEOs of Caterpillar, AMD, Nvidia, Google, Microsoft and Apple?
replies(1): >>41906297 #
22. psunavy03 ◴[] No.41906297{5}[source]
. . . who all still have CFOs, MBAs, and others reporting to them on the financial viability of the business.
23. dylan604 ◴[] No.41906303{3}[source]
Cherry on top that propulsion issues are now problematic for Boeing satellites AND capsules. I wonder if there's a crossover in personnel in either engineering or management.
24. fragmede ◴[] No.41906329{5}[source]
Intel under Andy Grove, Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes, Boeing under Muilenburg, and Nokia under Kallasvuo had various business issues under an engineer CEO.
25. dylan604 ◴[] No.41906371{6}[source]
This is a nice summation. If LLMs ever produce this kind of output, I'll buy into the tech is good.
26. vkazanov ◴[] No.41906445{6}[source]
Engineer would first try to build a cooking machine.
27. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.41906727{6}[source]
I think this makes a pretty good stereotype based on reality.

This is something of a dichotomy between engineering-based structures and sales-centric, with MBA's and designers as collateral players.

Everybody needs sales of some kind, but most businesses do not actually need "engineering", so there are not usually any engineers expected to in the chain-of-command. Even in an engineering company itself there may be only token members in the most critical decision-making positions.

A sales hierarchy sells from a select source of technology.

An engineering hierarchy selects a technology to be a source of.

They each have huge pallettes to choose from, but they are different.

I think many lifelong business operators are aware that it really takes far more years to truly learn their business than it would to enroll as a freshman and end up earning an MBA.

And that's not even engineering companies.

These are the kind of organizations that may have no worthwhile use for even the most talented decision-maker of any kind regardless of degree, until after their employment has been lengthy enough to have achieved the working acumen that is really necessary. In many cases taking far more years on active duty than in academic preparation, but it's worth it.

But even if you can do without MBA's forever, you still have to have Production, Sales, accountants, HR, Admin, security, IT, etc. You can only go so far with "engineers" only.

However, in one way to approach an ideal "engineering company" the entire chain-of-command consists of true technical leaders-by-consensus top-to-bottom in a Maslow-like way where by nature less consensus is needed toward the top where the individual vision finally becomes most powerful.

All the other departments report to this engineering backbone in one way or another so the buck always stops with somebody who can handle the engineering calculus and who always puts that kind of thing foremost from day one, without undue reliance on business calculus, which are two different pursuits to an extent.

Then if a gifted MBA or two have something to offer, they can do so while reporting to the appropriate engineers, never the other way around.

You need to get back to a more technically talented chain-of-command where they instinctively can make way more money through technology than any bean-counters would ever be able to save even if they laid everyone off.

No doubt you can accomplish a lot by having a completely non-technical chain-of-command, with engineering off to the side like other essentials such as accounting or HR. People do it all the time. But you can't really accomplish quite the same things after all.

Still it sounds like any customers who stumbled in to the "Engineering Restaurant" end up with the best as far as the food itself, although there is some "Artisan Dining" where the experience can be unforgettable too.

Sometimes you don't get much on your plate though, I wondered if they were in the back eating most of it themselves ;)

28. DrillShopper ◴[] No.41906825{6}[source]
> The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time

Okay, so it's functionally impossible with the current and likely next incoming US administration.

29. DougN7 ◴[] No.41907526{4}[source]
But is the moral of the story that the guys that made the bad decisions got their bonuses and moved on, and aren’t affected by the aftermath? That’s what I fear the MBA’s will learn - don’t stick around.
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30. kjs3 ◴[] No.41908789{6}[source]
Sure, after. That wasn't the plan, tho.
31. dylan604 ◴[] No.41909030{5}[source]
It's not just MBAs that don't stick around. Even in the tech world, it's common for people to bounce around. Usually what ever the vesting period is.