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Accountability sinks

(aworkinglibrary.com)
493 points l0b0 | 109 comments | | HN request time: 0.865s | source | bottom
1. rougka ◴[] No.41893123[source]
I remember experiencing this in one of the German airports/airlines and having that exact thought.

It was this fully automated airport, where the checkin is self serviced and you only interact with computers.

Eventually, when I inserted my boarding pass I had a printed piece of paper back that said that they had to change my seat from aisle to midseat

I then tried to find someone to talk to the entire way, but computers can only interact in the way the UI was designed, and no programmer accounted or cared for my scenario

The ground attendant couldn't have done anything of course because it wasn't part of the scope of her job, and this was the part of germany where nice was not one of their stereotypes.

Eventually I got a survey a week later about a different leg of the flight, so could I really complain there? that one was fine? I had a paranoid wonder if that was intentional

replies(9): >>41893267 #>>41893293 #>>41893412 #>>41893779 #>>41893889 #>>41893974 #>>41894383 #>>41898357 #>>41904416 #
2. lazide ◴[] No.41893267[source]
It’s a way to fully automate a Brazil scenario. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)]

Since at least in that scenario, there were humans in the Bureaucracy that could (but didn’t particularly) feel bad.

In this scenario, no humans need to be directly involved, which allows the scope and scale to be even more Dystopian.

replies(2): >>41893511 #>>41900487 #
3. m463 ◴[] No.41893293[source]
Many businesses build walls around themselves like this.

Hiding the customer service number. Making an FAQ that is missing the common but time-consuming questions. Chatbots instead of people.

I remember when amazon sent me a package once, said it was delivered, but it was nowhere to be found. There was no way to get help. They did have an FAQ at the time that said to check in the bushes.

What was annoying was the search auto-complete had many variations of "package not found says delivered"

Now, it is a little more filled out but still.

replies(3): >>41893383 #>>41893636 #>>41894407 #
4. gregmac ◴[] No.41893383[source]
I just switched ISPs, and the new one has one of the most obnoxious phone processes I've ever interacted with.

I go through the usual hoops: press 1 for English, "we detected an account linked to the number you're calling from, is that that you're calling about?" ... Press 1 for support, press 1 for Internet, "no outages detected in your area. Most problems can be solved by rebooting your modem. Press 1 if you want to try rebooting." (Pause)... "thank you for your call click"

First off, rebooting doesn't solve my problem. But I guess I have to try anyway?

So I call back, this time I do pick to reboot, and get "your modem will reboot in the next few minutes, and could take up to 10 minutes to come online. If things still aren't working, try our online support chat"

So, basically there doesn't seem to be any phone technical support (with a human), at all.

Also, rebooting is offensive to me as a programmer. Kernel updates and memory leaks are the only reason you need to reboot. How absolutely shitty is modem firmware that the ISP actually spent the time to build this reboot system out??(Never mind that I personally don't feel like I've ever had a modem/isp actually problem solved by rebooting)

Made me wonder if I should have switched.

replies(5): >>41893655 #>>41893667 #>>41893678 #>>41893836 #>>41894243 #
5. eloisius ◴[] No.41893412[source]
I had a similar experience in Germany about a year ago. Train stations are mostly self-service now. The ticket kiosk ate my €50 and promptly rebooted. It didn’t print a receipt or anything. The only human I could find was a security guard. He told me to call the number on a sticker on the machine. The person who answered couldn’t speak English. My €50 is out there somewhere but it would cost me more than that to track it down.
replies(3): >>41893645 #>>41894023 #>>41895522 #
6. noisy_boy ◴[] No.41893511[source]
Of all the various useless laws that keep getting enacted, one that guarantees that every company needs to have a phone number, manned by actual human(s) with organic intelligence, advertised prominently on their products/advertisements, never gets passed.
replies(2): >>41893583 #>>41896608 #
7. lazide ◴[] No.41893583{3}[source]
Because that would cost them money, instead of forcing people to find their own workarounds (or die).

Many parts of gov’t aren’t far off, and those are the really scary ones.

8. ben_w ◴[] No.41893636[source]
I've got an actual email address to a real business, but the humans* are struggling with the concept of "$company created the account with the wrong billing address, ignoring my agent who could have received it when my agent did contact $company, it's provably $company's fault that the bills were not received, so $company must tell me who this debt collector is and refund me for the late payment penalties and admit their own fault to the CRA".

* not that I could tell if they were LLMs

9. larodi ◴[] No.41893645[source]
That’s a sad experience and I would definitely try to chase them robots. Sadly even though German public transport fascinates with its ease of use and quality, though when it comes to human service you can find yourself in peculiar position. And particularly if you are not German and happen to be in one of those international cities there where Germans are fed up with visitor. You waive goodbye to your 50€ and keep a story to tell, that’s all.

Sadly I don’t expect this all to get any better with robots and LLms and thing. We will be crying to meet a human sooner than later, and my hope is this far cry will eventually get us to the dawn of new era when you actually have people in the loop, just for humanity’s sake.

replies(4): >>41893665 #>>41893760 #>>41893838 #>>41893906 #
10. auggierose ◴[] No.41893655{3}[source]
Why did you switch? Can't have been their reputation for support.
11. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.41893665{3}[source]
>my hope is this far cry will eventually get us to the dawn of new era

after the Butlerian Jihad.

12. yetihehe ◴[] No.41893667{3}[source]
> (Never mind that I personally don't feel like I've ever had a modem/isp actually problem solved by rebooting)

I had problems solved several times by rebooting modem. One time it was "reboot modem and access point in proper order", me naively rebooting them both at the same time didn't help, only phone support solved this problem.

> Also, rebooting is offensive to me as a programmer.

Hmm, I might be desensitivised from too much programming in erlang. It's implied that your program will encounter bugs or strange data and parts WILL be restarted, better account for that and plan on what to do on restart of each small part at the start of writing your program.

> So, basically there doesn't seem to be any phone technical support (with a human), at all.

Because it's cheaper. Those who don't have support can offer lower prices. When people search for trinkets, they only have information about what is supported, there is no good information about quality of device and support, high price also not always means better support. SO they just go for lower price and hope not to suffer too much.

replies(1): >>41893837 #
13. ginko ◴[] No.41893678{3}[source]
>If things still aren't working, try our online support chat

>So, basically there doesn't seem to be any phone technical support (with a human), at all.

I wish everything had support chat. IMO it's much less hassle than having to call. It's usually trivial to get through the first layer of automated support and get a human on the line.

replies(1): >>41894264 #
14. olex ◴[] No.41893760{3}[source]
>German public transport fascinates with its ease of use and quality

Ease of use maybe, although my parents and grandparents would like to argue differently. They are not as quick to work their smartphone, and the ticket machines are being removed everywhere to be replaced by apps that are much cheaper to run. This works fine for the younger generations, but older and less tech-savvy people are getting left behind.

Quality though, no way. Every single time I tried to give ÖPNV a chance in the last 3-4 years I was either different degrees of late or didn't arrive at all without switching to some alternative method of transport on the way. Doesn't even matter if I tried local routes (Frankfurt and Darmstadt) or longer inter-city connections to Munich or Leipzig, it's all completely broken. People in my company routinely book connections several hours earlier than they need to be places to have a chance of arriving in time, and often are still late. Trains are overbooked, connections are late or often cancelled altogether, seat reservarions don't work more often than they do, WiFi on the trains never works... Many, many things have to change for me to reconsider my default of taking the car everywhere, and I don't think they will in any sort of a relevant timeline.

replies(2): >>41901974 #>>41905084 #
15. lmm ◴[] No.41893779[source]
At this point everyone needs to get in the habit of using small claims court. You can often do it online in a few minutes these days.

Make a good faith effort to get your problem addressed, and record the fact that you've done so to use in your hearing if it gets that far. Then just file the claim. Generally they fold immediately, and this way you incentivize actual customer service in the only language they understand.

replies(4): >>41893874 #>>41893969 #>>41895091 #>>41898218 #
16. eru ◴[] No.41893836{3}[source]
> Also, rebooting is offensive to me as a programmer. Kernel updates and memory leaks are the only reason you need to reboot. How absolutely shitty is modem firmware that the ISP actually spent the time to build this reboot system out??(Never mind that I personally don't feel like I've ever had a modem/isp actually problem solved by rebooting)

Why is rebooting offensive to you? State is hard; resetting your system to know state can fix many issues.

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40212967

replies(1): >>41894465 #
17. eru ◴[] No.41893837{4}[source]
Yes, see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40212967
18. bojan ◴[] No.41893838{3}[source]
It's not that they don't want to have people, it's that there are no people. Germany, as most of other countries in Europe, has an aging population and the workforce is hard to find. So all these "easy" things that can get automated, do get automated, oftentimes indeed at the price of quality of service in exceptional situations.
replies(2): >>41893978 #>>41894126 #
19. switch007 ◴[] No.41893874[source]
I do agree but also feel if people did this en masse, that system would get a rate limiter. After 2 claims per year you would be barred for being "vexatious"
replies(2): >>41893937 #>>41894210 #
20. nh2 ◴[] No.41893889[source]
Germany is somewhat rubbish.

I arrived at the train station in the night after 6 hours train journey. German Railways app shows there will be my final leg train in 45 minutes. I wait in the cold at night, sitting in the station building because it's warmer there. 5 minutes before departure I go on the platform. The local display shows no train, even though the all still shows it. I waited for nothing.

Syncing the app with the train station? Somebody else's problem.

In half an hour there should be a replacement bus for another cancelled train. There are no signs in the app or the station that indicate where that bus is to be found. You just need to know.

Putting sings for replacement buses due to degraded service that's long planned and already happening for 2 months? Somebody else's problem.

An old man asks if the bus will allow to catch the train connection at its destination. The bus driver bitches at him for asking that question -- not his job. Somebody else's problem.

Training the bus driver that, being an official replacement of a train, he needs to know that, clearly also somebody else's problem than that of the German Railways.

It's pitch black outside, the windows are opaque due to moisture, so I can't tell where we are even though I was born the area and lived here for 18 years. The bus driver makes no announcements about the stops, there is no display. Knowing when to request a stop to get off? Somebody else's problem.

The bus is ice cold for an hour. When am old lady gets off and tells the bus driver that it was freezing all journey, he asks "well what can you do". Bewildered she answers "turn on the heating"? He didn't expect that. He seemed to think that everything except driving was somebody else's problem.

This is just one night's bus journey story. I also got my SIM card deleted and a parcel was lost in the subsequent week. Documenting here the amounts of "somebody else's problem" I encountered in their customer support hotlines is somebody else's problem for me for now.

replies(3): >>41893934 #>>41894196 #>>41903217 #
21. formerly_proven ◴[] No.41893906{3}[source]
> german public transport fascinates with its ease of use and quality

You have something mixed up there.

replies(1): >>41893948 #
22. atoav ◴[] No.41893934[source]
And the root of all that? Privatization.
replies(6): >>41894169 #>>41894202 #>>41894206 #>>41894471 #>>41897446 #>>41898080 #
23. immibis ◴[] No.41893937{3}[source]
Only if the claims are illegitimate.
24. immibis ◴[] No.41893948{4}[source]
It's definitely easy to use. You show up at the station when the train is coming. You get on the train. Later, you get off the train. No security checks like an airport. No multi step check in. Just be there and get on. In many cases your ticket won't even be checked, and when it is it's while you're seated while the train is moving. Getting a ticket is no problem: the ticket machines are multilingual, and you type in the stops you want to go from/to and the date. You can also book one online and get a QR-like code you can print or display on your phone.

Quality is mediocre. The trains are often delayed, which is a problem with the size of the network and cascading failures. Once they do get to A, they get from A to B just fine, the seats are okay, the luggage space is okay, etc. The DB Navigator app is useful for finding alternative routes but it won't tell you whether your ticket is valid for them. It will tell you if the delay is so long that you're allowed to use any route.

replies(2): >>41897475 #>>41905121 #
25. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41893969[source]
What claim would there have to be to file on the scenario outlined?
replies(1): >>41894017 #
26. clktmr ◴[] No.41893974[source]
I can provide another POV to that story. We checked in as a family of four, and we're assigned seats in four different rows, with a two and a four year old. Only when entering the plane we had the possibility address this to a human and we were assigned new seats.

So this might be the reason you had to change seats.

replies(1): >>41896627 #
27. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41893978{4}[source]
The automations predate any demographic issues - mostly a (sticky) cost thing.
28. lmm ◴[] No.41894017{3}[source]
Ah, I meant that post to be a reply to the ticket machine eating the 50 euro note.
replies(1): >>41894034 #
29. jhrmnn ◴[] No.41894023[source]
> The person who answered couldn’t speak English.

It sounds like this was the main point of failure. I’m not sure it can be considered an error in the system. I’d consider the risk inherent in traveling in a country without knowing its language.

replies(2): >>41894054 #>>41898112 #
30. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41894034{4}[source]
Thank you for clarifying!
31. scrollaway ◴[] No.41894054{3}[source]
Germany is the only country in which I’ve had 112 (emergency services) hang up on me because they couldn’t speak English.

It’s worse than France in this regard.

replies(4): >>41894075 #>>41894157 #>>41894578 #>>41897351 #
32. jhrmnn ◴[] No.41894075{4}[source]
Sure, that’s bad, and a service dealing with train ticket machine failures not available in English isn’t as bad.
replies(2): >>41894583 #>>41894773 #
33. someoneiam ◴[] No.41894126{4}[source]
Well, they say that, but in my experience at least, that is just conjured up as a more palatable explanation after the fact. While I do think that a certain, even significant, amount of automation is good, there is also a large mass of unemployed that can undoubtedly be trained to fill these "human interaction" kind of roles (support). This workforce is still not hard to find at all. We just don't want to do that - there is not a single western country left that has low unemployment as its key prerogative.
replies(2): >>41894318 #>>41905101 #
34. aziaziazi ◴[] No.41894157{4}[source]
Yes, but it’s still fine to have a customer service only answering in the official language. The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good but if that’s not the case, blaming the company seems unfair to me.
replies(3): >>41894512 #>>41894589 #>>41895077 #
35. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41894169{3}[source]
The German mail rail and track operator (Deutsche Bahn) isn't private but 100% state owned (and control sits with the federal government). They wanted to privatize it a couple of decades ago but abandoned it. There is still some hybridization between supposedly it being a business and also a public service left in the law, though.
replies(3): >>41894501 #>>41894506 #>>41894866 #
36. heisenbit ◴[] No.41894196[source]
There is some degree of accountability for DB: Other organizations like Swiss and Austrian railways stopped taking schedules of DB seriously and stopped waiting or booking through.
37. presentation ◴[] No.41894202{3}[source]
Given how good the rail systems are in several Asian cities despite/thanks to being private, you might want to reconsider that opinion.
replies(2): >>41895768 #>>41904986 #
38. maccard ◴[] No.41894206{3}[source]
No, it's not. It's bureacracy, and it exists in every big organisation, private or public. I'd actually suggest that public sector bodies are often worse for this.
replies(1): >>41894304 #
39. maccard ◴[] No.41894210{3}[source]
Being realistic, if you have these sorts of issues more than twice a year there's probably something wrong and you should fix that. Everyone has a few of those stories, but the only people who consistently have them are likely looking for trouble and picking fights.
replies(1): >>41901447 #
40. maccard ◴[] No.41894243{3}[source]
> Also, rebooting is offensive to me as a programmer. Kernel updates and memory leaks are the only reason you need to reboot.

This surprises me - as a programmer you should realise that reboots can often help. Cache invalidation is one of the notoriously hard CS problems and an awful lot of systems will start fresh on reboot.

> (Never mind that I personally don't feel like I've ever had a modem/isp actually problem solved by rebooting)

My current ISP is better, but my previous ISP cycled IP addresses at 2am (and lost connectivity for about 30 seconds at the same time) on a Friday night. I would semi-frequently be up playing games at that hour, and it was about 50/50 as to whether devices on my network would survive the blip. Rebooting the router had a 100% success rate.

I currently (unfortunately) have a google wifi mesh system. It works great, except about once a month it reports that absolutely everything is fine, all tests pass from my mobile device, but my laptop has no internet connectivity. Rebooting fixes it just fine.

> How absolutely shitty is modem firmware that the ISP actually spent the time to build this reboot system out?

Firmware is still software, like it or lump it. Modem firmware has been shitty for a long time. A major ISP [0] in the UK had an issue with their firmware that caused massive latency spikes under load. Alsom Power loss happens sometimes. The modem/router has to be able to turn on in the first place, so a "reboot" is just going through that process again. It's attempting to return to a "last known good".

[0] https://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Forum-Archive/Hub-3-Com...

41. maccard ◴[] No.41894264{4}[source]
I agree, but;

Support chat is universally shitty. My mobile provider's website only works if you keep the browser window open, and times out if you go away for 2 minutes. The replies often take more than 2 minutes. I can only access "certain" information about my account if I'm on mobile data, except my carrier's website doesn't work if I am out of data. (granted, I am on a super budget mobile network, but still). In the last 18 months, the chat experience has been taken over by LLM's which are just acting as full text search for the doc pages that don't solve my problem.

I still choose web chat over any other method of interaction though.

42. Moru ◴[] No.41894304{4}[source]
They are only worse because they are bigger. If the private replacement organization gets as big, they get the same problems.
replies(2): >>41897463 #>>41901713 #
43. Moru ◴[] No.41894318{5}[source]
Yes, it's only a profit thing. If you cut out the humans you can make more money. If not for your boss then for the company that gets the contract to make the automation.
44. jowea ◴[] No.41894383[source]
Does Germany have a consumer protection agency? I might have complained there after the flight.
45. RobotToaster ◴[] No.41894407[source]
I've started just sending physical, paper, letters if I need to communicate with a company. It seems to have a better success rate.
46. sethammons ◴[] No.41894465{4}[source]
If your microwave had an error, you would be put off if you had to power cycle the whole house. Installed a new receptacle, sure, but operating an appliance? No way. Now you would have to reset your clocks everywhere at a minimum.

I have a linux computer running a public server that has not be restarted in three and a half years. This is what I expect.

Every time I have to reboot my work laptop due to work pushing some updates or that I have to reboot my windows machine because it is running unreasonably slow, I am reminded that inconsiderate assholes have become more lazy and are ok with polluting the whole system, mismanaging state and resiliency, and when the equivalent of the microwave has an error, the only solution is rebooting my house. We can do better.

replies(2): >>41895449 #>>41895662 #
47. Panzer04 ◴[] No.41894471{3}[source]
Really?

The more focused a company is (the more reliant it is on its core service) the more accountable it can be. I'd argue many companies are if anything more accountable than the government. It doesn't have to be true, but I'd argue it often is.

48. Dilettante_ ◴[] No.41894501{4}[source]
The Deutsche Bahn AG is in fact a private Aktiengesellschaft(which is to say a stock company) with the german gov't owning 100% of the shares. I'd very much argue that it is run mostly like a private enterprise and only occasionally compelled by the government to act like a public service.
replies(3): >>41894625 #>>41895270 #>>41897693 #
49. atoav ◴[] No.41894506{4}[source]
You sure the ~600 companies that the Deutsche Bahn is made up of can be compared to one state-owned entity?
replies(1): >>41894632 #
50. kleiba ◴[] No.41894512{5}[source]
> The chance are high that a random German speaks English

Not sure how random my selection process was, but that certainly wasn't my experience when I lived in Germany a few years ago. Maybe in big cities, yes. But even in the burbs, chances are you have to look for the metaphorical needle in the haystack to find someone speaking English. Your best bet might just be teenagers and young adults.

replies(1): >>41894603 #
51. f1shy ◴[] No.41894578{4}[source]
Yes sir. A friend of mine, the girlfriend passed out, being pregnant. In the moment of total stress, we called 112, and said “passed away“ instead of „passed out“. The guy on the other side “well, if she is dead, why are you calling?!” Very rude. He went on to explain, it was an error, an instead of just dispatch an ambulance, had to hear a 10 minute lesson in english (from a german) after which the ambulance was dispatched. When the ambulance finally arrived, she was “ok” so they had to pay couple of thousand Euros for a “negligent dispatch”…

The level of arrogance and lack of empathy and service is beyond limits.

replies(1): >>41897563 #
52. f1shy ◴[] No.41894583{5}[source]
Go to any museum… just brutal.
53. f1shy ◴[] No.41894589{5}[source]
Please look my comment to the parent comment. If you do find a german that speaks understandable english (that you can differentiate “think” and “sink” or “g” and “she” or “zoo” and “sue” then may be the arrogant crap that got my friend. For that they receive years of “Ausbildung”…
replies(1): >>41900410 #
54. f1shy ◴[] No.41894603{6}[source]
Absolutely. There is a big myth that “germans (all?) speak good English“ and nothing can be further from the truth. There are good ones, sure, maybe even more percent than other places, but go out of Berlin, Hamburg, Munich… and good luck!!!
55. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41894625{5}[source]
Yes, but doesn't change that it is 100% state owned and controlled with a mixed mandate (business/public service - see art 87e GG). No reason to absolve the owner and the associated politics from their responsibilities.

The legal form doesn't determine whether something is state owned or private.

56. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41894632{5}[source]
All rolls up into one 100% owner and having a lot of subsidiaries isn't unusual.
replies(1): >>41894882 #
57. yxhuvud ◴[] No.41894773{5}[source]
Ticket machines are still something foreigners can be expected to interact and need help with.
replies(1): >>41895507 #
58. medstrom ◴[] No.41894866{4}[source]
The actual root is even widely acknowledged: DB has been underfunded for a long time.
replies(1): >>41895939 #
59. medstrom ◴[] No.41894882{6}[source]
I believe they make a good point: making a vertically integrated entity could matter more than just buying most of the shares.

If we are discussing tendencies of "privatized vs public", it's hard to ignore that factor. Public entities that historically worked well weren't just masses of 600 subcontractors.

replies(1): >>41894954 #
60. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41894954{7}[source]
But again, that is up to the owners - and the owner is the state. Also, the state didn't buy most of the shares: it had full ownership before and kept it while the legal form changed.
61. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.41895077{5}[source]
>The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good

What does high mean in this context? I experienced what I would call the inverse Danish maneuver, the German obviously understand English because they often answered our English questions correctly - In German.

In Denmark if a Dane understands what you said in Danish but you have a definite accent they will often answer your question in English.

Maybe Germanic cultures are geared towards the rude.

replies(2): >>41895233 #>>41897591 #
62. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.41895091[source]
>At this point everyone needs to get in the habit of using small claims court. You can often do it online in a few minutes these days.

what country is this "small claims court" in? And are you sure this country's small claims works the way your country does?

63. HighGoldstein ◴[] No.41895233{6}[source]
This sounds like a language education issue. It's easier to understand a language than to express yourself in it, so possibly Germans on average have good enough knowledge of English to understand you but not enough to adequately reply in English. Conversely, Denmark has some of the highest English literacy in Europe.
replies(1): >>41896526 #
64. carlosjobim ◴[] No.41895270{5}[source]
It's still the government running the company if they own all the shares. So what's your point?
65. eru ◴[] No.41895449{5}[source]
> I have a linux computer running a public server that has not be restarted in three and a half years. This is what I expect.

I restart my Linux desktop every few weeks, when the kernel updates.

For a reliable server, you want to exercise the restart ritual somewhat regularly, because when anything goes wrong (eg with the hardware), you might have to restart anyway, so you want to be sure that this works.

66. aziaziazi ◴[] No.41895507{6}[source]
People visiting a foreign country can still expect to have to interact with local not speaking their language.
67. graemep ◴[] No.41895522[source]
I had something similar happen to be on the tube in london. My ticket got demagnetised (combined intercity rail with travel card are/were still magnetic stripe tickets) and there were not staff at the station so I could not get the barrier open to leave.
replies(1): >>41897791 #
68. bornfreddy ◴[] No.41895662{5}[source]
Windows is awful at this. Completely weird problems with many apps (especially VPN) which get resolved with a reboot. Seriously? It is the whole culture around this OS which finds this acceptable.
replies(1): >>41897407 #
69. dambi0 ◴[] No.41895768{4}[source]
I presume running a national rail system is somewhat different from a railway for a single city. How good are the national rail systems in these countries?
replies(1): >>41896866 #
70. rad_gruchalski ◴[] No.41895939{5}[source]
It’s an AG, why should it be funded?
replies(2): >>41897112 #>>41897332 #
71. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.41896526{7}[source]
I mean sure, that sounds plausible, until I point out in Germany that I don't speak German and they continue trying to explain to me in German the answer to my question.

If I'm talking to an Italian and trying to explain to them in English and they don't understand then I try with a combination of my broken Italian and hand signals, not obdurate sticking to English because that's being a jerk.

At the same time, yes Danes have a high English literacy, but switching to English when someone is talking to you in Danish is rude no matter how you slice it.

72. immibis ◴[] No.41896608{3}[source]
Germany has this law for commercial websites. Mostly it makes people afraid to have websites.
73. rougka ◴[] No.41896627[source]
they claimed they had to change planes though i had selected that seat when booking the flight, and there were no humans available to address such issues
74. presentation ◴[] No.41896866{5}[source]
Japan’s is the greatest in the world, for one.
75. RandomLensman ◴[] No.41897112{6}[source]
Why would it not given the legal framework put in place?
76. chgs ◴[] No.41897332{6}[source]
Most of the world agrees that public transport has external benefits and therefore is deserving of public funding.
77. chgs ◴[] No.41897351{4}[source]
I tried speaking German to a random security guard in Arizona and he just walked off.
78. chgs ◴[] No.41897407{6}[source]
Often this will be resolved by the network being quiet long enough for a reboot - with connection tables in intermediate firewalls timing out etc - rather than the actual reboot.
79. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.41897446{3}[source]
> the root of all that? Privatization

Honesty, it's German politics doing precisely this that's part of the problem: flippant diagnoses too broadly applied from afar.

80. ◴[] No.41897463{5}[source]
81. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.41897475{5}[source]
> You show up at the station when the train is coming. You get on the train. Later, you get off the train.

The train is late. The lounges suck or are tied to a complex system of ticket tiers that seemingly don't correlate to price. You bought a specific seat but the train was changed so now no assigned seat and lol on a refund. And fuck you if you're crossing borders.

Germans travel a good amount by car for good reason [1]. When I'm in Germany, I tend to drive between cities because the alternative is burning several hours in buffers and delays.

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

82. bmicraft ◴[] No.41897563{5}[source]
> When the ambulance finally arrived, she was “ok” so they had to pay couple of thousand Euros for a “negligent dispatch”

That part seems really hard to believe for me. The only time you should get charged at all is for prank calling. In fact, if you call and tell them and decide you don't need EMS after all they will in fact come anyways because they need to check on every call. And you will not get charged for that.

replies(1): >>41905484 #
83. bmicraft ◴[] No.41897591{6}[source]
They might have been rude, but that's besides the point. Even if they could speak English you shouldn't expect them to be comfortable doing so. That actually seems pretty rude in itself to me.
replies(1): >>41898579 #
84. rqtwteye ◴[] No.41897693{5}[source]
I would say Deutsche Bahn has managed to combine the disadvantages of public services with the disadvantages of private companies into one coherently terrible package.
replies(1): >>41901677 #
85. Tijdreiziger ◴[] No.41897791{3}[source]
There are supposed to be help points where you can call staff.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-undergroun...

86. concerndc1tizen ◴[] No.41898080{3}[source]
Exactly.

Being a bus driver used to be a decent job for semi-retired construction workers, and such.

But then privatization hit, and over the last 20 years, there is no niceness left. They're even trained to disregard customers, and penalized otherwise. It's insanely inhumane.

And the causal effect is very clear, there can be no doubt about it. It's not the bus driver's fault.

87. eloisius ◴[] No.41898112{3}[source]
If I had been buying a ticket at a window from a human, there's no way I'd have handed over 50 EUR without someone understanding me. If fluency in the local language to the level that you can have a phone conversation (which is many times more difficult than face-to-face) is a prerequisite for visiting a country, you are either an impressive polyglot, or don't travel enough.
88. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.41898218[source]
Not every state allows you to file small claims against people outside the state, FYI.
89. hinkley ◴[] No.41898357[source]
Norman talks about how systems need a way to veto or override the automatic decisions to be humane.

That book is now almost old enough to have a programming job.

90. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.41898579{7}[source]
right, if I'm trying to get information from a guy at a train ticket agent and I don't speak German but he obviously understands what I am saying in English it is me being rude for expecting him to make some sort of attempt to explain to me where I need to get off at in a language we both evidently understand instead of me just learning his language in a couple minutes.
91. LargoLasskhyfv ◴[] No.41900410{6}[source]
Jaa. Vell. Trai zamm Turkish or Arabic zen?

What THE FUCK is it with the expectation that everybody has to understand and speak in-glitch? Employ a local guide. Too expensive? Bad luck. Entitled little .....

replies(1): >>41905501 #
92. LargoLasskhyfv ◴[] No.41900487[source]
Brazil iz good. Becauz dirty dogz got plugged!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/mediaviewer/rm557755905...

Meow!

93. switch007 ◴[] No.41901447{4}[source]
And that's exactly the line and slander they would use when they bring in new legislation to stop "abuse" of the system. You've proven my point
replies(1): >>41904201 #
94. seec ◴[] No.41901677{6}[source]
Well it's pretty much the same with the SNCF in France. However, surprisingly it is still more reliable than the DB (less accident, more on time); which is quite shocking considering German's reputation...
95. seec ◴[] No.41901713{5}[source]
There is still a meaningful difference. Businesses usually need to have some profit even if minimum so they will run leaner for the same output because of efficiency.

I agree that there are many big businesses bureaucracies but they tend to be in areas closely linked to the state/government because of heavy regulation: banks and insurance for example. They tend to survive despite their terrible efficiency because it is way too costly to enter their business for a small actor. Any of their real competitors is already big enough that the bureaucracy is already well established...

replies(1): >>41903687 #
96. saagarjha ◴[] No.41901974{4}[source]
I was in Berlin earlier this year and everything too contactless payment, no app required.
97. johnisgood ◴[] No.41903217[source]
> It's pitch black outside, the windows are opaque due to moisture, so I can't tell where we are even though I was born the area and lived here for 18 years. The bus driver makes no announcements about the stops, there is no display. Knowing when to request a stop to get off? Somebody else's problem.

I have experienced this many times. Thankfully the bus drivers here in Hungary are pretty helpful (well, in my county at least), and worst case: you ask other passengers who also happen to be friendly. When it is pitch black outside and the windows are opaque due to moisture, it is not only your problem, but everyone else's, and people often find a way to cooperate and work together.

98. L-four ◴[] No.41903687{6}[source]
A business only needs to make a profit efficiency is not required or desirable.
99. maccard ◴[] No.41904201{5}[source]
And ditto - you came to my comment to pick a fight with something a decent number of people will agree with me on. You didn’t have to, but you decided this was a hill to fight on. My experience in dealing with the public has been that there are a very small number of people who will frequently push the boundaries of what the system is designed for, will scream bloody murder when things don’t go as they want, and will employ a scorched earth policy on handling the fallout. As a private business, you have the option to tell those people to pound sand (which I got much pleasure in doing ), but as a public body or organisation you can’t, but you need to ensure that one malicious user doesn’t topple the system for the rest of the users.
replies(2): >>41908511 #>>41908560 #
100. ilumanty ◴[] No.41904416[source]
The experience is quite similar with DHL when you have a non-standard question. The chatbot is utterly useless and there is no way to contact a human being if you're not a business customer.
101. BobaFloutist ◴[] No.41904986{4}[source]
They still don't make money off of being rail systems, they make money off of real-estate developments.

So, sure, you can have a rail system self-fund as long as you let it build whatever the fuck it wants at stations and funnel all the profits back into the train line.

102. larodi ◴[] No.41905084{4}[source]
> Ease of use maybe, although my parents and grandparents would like to argue differently.

at a second read (and thought) you are absolutely right, and there is a major moral to take from this story: it may be viewed as being against humanity's nature to remove legacy UIs for as long as there are old users willing to stick with them. like banning bicycles that do not run on batteries, can you imagine, as they'd be slower than other bikes!

we can definitely argue that a person in his right mind, and no matter the age, should be able to choose to stay with certain interface, if this does not incur massive costs. where I live you can still buy paper tickets from the driver, even though pay-as-you-go is the de facto choice for many, and of all ages. today I saw a minority ethnic girl buy a paper ticket rather than be penalized. everyone knew what happened, and I believe they were 100% human and much appreciated them getting paper ticket last minute from the driver.

103. larodi ◴[] No.41905101{5}[source]
This is the challenge of 21st century, innit? To motivate those who are OK with universal minimal income, which is apparently already there scattered in all forms of scam, surplus and wasted goods.
104. larodi ◴[] No.41905121{5}[source]
interestingly you forget to mention something that was not there 20 years ago, when these trains still be running ok. all that was not so well connected with all apps, you can have a Lime calculated in your route perhaps today, which was not there. and this all IS connected with DE system of public transport, which on its own, no matter the technical underlying, is superb. and trains are lot cleaner than many other places, even those regularly servicing Berlin,
105. f1shy ◴[] No.41905484{6}[source]
Believe me, it was charged. I could not believe until I saw the papers. This is noones land.
106. f1shy ◴[] No.41905501{7}[source]
Well... who won and who lost the war?
replies(1): >>41910464 #
107. ◴[] No.41908511{6}[source]
108. switch007 ◴[] No.41908560{6}[source]
It was you originally who came to pick a fight, not me.
109. LargoLasskhyfv ◴[] No.41910464{8}[source]
Voult juh äsk zät in China, tu?