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230 points mdp2021 | 42 comments | | HN request time: 0.995s | source | bottom
1. avar ◴[] No.41868092[source]
This article doesn't even try to address what I feel is the deeper and more interesting question (but probably one that can't be answered): Why is it that horses, cows, giraffes and birds have all had to come up with a purely passive solution of "locking" themselves in place, either via their joints (for the four-legged), or via the tendon mechanism described here for birds?

I.e. why wasn't in simpler in evolutionary terms to come up with some mechanism where 1% of the brain was dedicated to the relatively simple task of "station keeping", while the rest of the brain could benefit from sleep?

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2. meindnoch ◴[] No.41868139[source]
Also, why didn't any animal evolve a way to avoid sleep completely?
replies(6): >>41868172 #>>41868174 #>>41868270 #>>41869630 #>>41870177 #>>41870407 #
3. roywashere ◴[] No.41868150[source]
Just as we can still breathe and digest food while sleeping!
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4. LoveMortuus ◴[] No.41868172[source]
I thought that dolphins could avoid having to sleep while travelling long distances by having part of the brain asleep and then switching when tired.

I could just be misremembering things, so I’m not certain.

replies(1): >>41869117 #
5. yann63 ◴[] No.41868174[source]
There's a species of bird (Chinstrap penguin) which kinda does that: it sleeps by intervals of 4 (four) seconds only. Many times through day & night. Can these 4 seconds naps be considered sleep? I don't know, but it goes along your question. Source: https://www.nationalgeographic.fr/animaux/insolite-decouvert...
replies(1): >>41868635 #
6. interludead ◴[] No.41868270[source]
Sleep has crucial role in survival and well-being
replies(1): >>41868891 #
7. asimpletune ◴[] No.41868635{3}[source]
It’s like duty in electronics
8. 123pie123 ◴[] No.41868707[source]
may guess it's not as simple as we think it is

or it has evolved somewhere and we either don't know about it or the trait didn't survive

9. mr_mitm ◴[] No.41868760[source]
We can even adjust our sleeping position while sleeping, possibly to avoid bedsores? But perhaps avoiding falling requires more processing power.
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10. johnisgood ◴[] No.41868776[source]
Concurrency at its finest I say!
11. johnisgood ◴[] No.41868809{3}[source]
Yes, adjusting our sleeping position has to do with the sensation of pain, a stimuli (pain, discomfort, pressure points) that cause most individuals to reposition during sleep, i.e. it is the sensation of pain from pressure buildup that triggers the need to move during sleep. You are right, it is to prevent prolonged compression of tissues, to avoid bedsores, nerve damage, etc.

That said, this is not the whole story, because there are people with a rare genetic disorder called CIPA which completely prevents the feeling of pain, but they still reposition themselves, so besides pain, it is muscle fatigue (that prompts subconscious movements), autonomic reflexes, and well, sleep cycles or phases also lead to the body shifting positions unconsciously.

In any case, people with CIPA are at a much higher risk of developing complications related to immobility because they do not experience the typical discomfort (pain) that triggers movement.

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12. jajko ◴[] No.41868891{3}[source]
Yeah but what role? 24h always at least a bit running brain has also crucial role in survival.

I get some form of maintenance is needed, but 8h every day seems like an overkill for very significant disadvantages. Many other mammals require significantly less sleep.

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13. Agentus ◴[] No.41869047[source]
Evolution is like DFS depth first search, it isnt looking for an optimal way optimally its just going down a branch until it finds a satisfactory solution.

Sleep according to sleep scientist matthew walker, isnt what it seems. If i remember correctly theres even more brain activity and it serves certain goals like behavior refinement, among other things not just refreshing yourself. There might not be more benefit by more sleep.

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14. Agentus ◴[] No.41869071{4}[source]
I can do more than that. I used to wake up sweaty half the time from sleeping as child. Now that never happens as an adult, i instead wake up with my sweater mysteriously taken off. I wish sleep self would learn to put a sweater on if it turns cold though.
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15. Agentus ◴[] No.41869105{4}[source]
According to sleep scientist mathew walker, it serves multiple roles, replenishment of resources obviously, but also behavior refinement (whatever you practice during the day gets practiced excessively while asleep), and sleep also is a creative and solution search.

He mentions that sleep is so crucial that despite how vulnerable it makes organisms to be debilitated 8 or whatever many hours a day, what it provides more than counterbalances that massive evolutionary vulnerability.

16. e40 ◴[] No.41869117{3}[source]
Each half sleeps alternately. Perhaps sleeping in water as a mammal requires mich more processing power.
replies(1): >>41869454 #
17. johnisgood ◴[] No.41869361{5}[source]
Yup, putting on a sweater is a more complex task which requires deliberate planning and coordination, it requires more cognitive control as opposed to tossing your shirt which is a simple reflexive behavior. Sleepwalkers can perform highly coordinated and complex behaviors as it does not happen during REM sleep where your body is paralyzed, but sleepwalking is a distinct phenomenon, plus when you are not sleepwalking, the brain's control over motor functions is very limited.

Not everything is lost though, you can potentially learn it through repetition, you just have to do this in a half-awake state or in a state close to sleep. Do it often enough, and theoretically you may be able to perform the task during non-REM sleep.

18. jahnu ◴[] No.41869387[source]
Does locking require any energy to maintain? I suspect very little if any.
19. harry_ord ◴[] No.41869454{4}[source]
Breathing is also a conscious action for them if I remember right
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20. VoodooJuJu ◴[] No.41869517[source]
Because evolution isn't a nerd optimizing a design. Design implies intent. Evolution is more random and serendipitous than a nerd with any sort of intent. It's not engineering. There's no specs & recs or post mortems or blueprints. Evolution is too beautiful, random, and mysterious for the enginerd to appreciate and understand.
21. nonameiguess ◴[] No.41869630[source]
Cnidarians and flatworms don't have a CNS and sponges don't have nerve tissue at all. I would think that means they don't do anything on a daily cycle that would match what we commonly call sleep.

I'd also wonder about creatures inhabiting extremely sparse environments like deep caves and undersea trenches, that spend most of their lives dormant and only seem to do anything at all when food happens to come around, which might only happen every few weeks or even every few years. They're probably not studied extensively enough to answer, but do they have anything like a sleep/wake cycle?

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22. onemoresoop ◴[] No.41869686{5}[source]
Dolphins need to come to surface to take air so you may be right. I also remember reading about how dolphins sleep and I remember there were 3 parts of the brain that were alternating sleep to make breathing possible.
23. Roark66 ◴[] No.41870016{3}[source]
One can make an argument we are conscious at some level when sleeping. We must be. How else would one wake up immediately when one's partner calls ones name, and sleep through cats screeming to be let out during the night :-)
24. dystroy ◴[] No.41870177[source]
We don't know exactly why nature can't do otherwise, but any complex brain has to sleep.

Some animals, mainly sharks which can't stop or they would be asphyxied, deal with that by having kind of 2 brains which are never both sleeping at the same time.

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25. Aardwolf ◴[] No.41870211{3}[source]
It would be so useful if one half could sleep, and then the other half, so you never have to be truly sleep
26. tofof ◴[] No.41870237{3}[source]
Flatworms, such as planaria, absolutely sleep and have a daily rhythm of increased and decreased activity. Cnidarians, such as hydra or the cassiopea jellyfish, sleep as well. Flatworms have a CNS and a bilobed brain, though cnidarians do not. My wife worked extensively in a planaria lab (one mentioned in citation below, coincidentally) before getting her PhD. Sponges (which lack any neurons at all) have a diurnal rhythm and the sleep research field considers it an open question whether they sleep, with one opined hypothesis being that sleep evolved for gut regulation before it was adapted for nervous regulation. Some go so far as to suggest the possibility that bacteria, algae, and plants sleep.

Neurotransmitters of sleep and wakefulness in flatworms https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9216492/

"Sleep is a prominent behavioral and biochemical state observed in all animals studied, including platyhelminth flatworms."

"Dopamine and histamine decreased the time spent inactive and increased distance traveled, consistent with their wake-promoting effect in vertebrates and fruit flies; pyrilamine increased restfulness and GABA showed a nonsignificant trend towards promoting restfulness in a dose-dependent manner, in agreement with their sleep-inducing effect in vertebrates, fruit flies, and Hydra."

Persistence of Nocturnality in Decapitated and Bisected Flatworms https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10278384/

"Here, we demonstrate that intact flatworms were predominantly active at night, with peaks in activity seen in the hours after lights-off and before lights-on. While decapitated and tailless flatworms could still move, both were less active than the original animal, and both segments retained a nocturnal lifestyle. Furthermore, decapitated flatworms, once regenerated, again showed a U-shaped pattern of nocturnal activity reminiscent of the two night-time peaks seen in the original animal. These results could be used to further investigate how regeneration may affect motor control and motor output, or to further investigate the presence of a clock in the flatworm brain."

"Nocturnal by nature, their rhythm persists even in the absence of photoperiodic cues, suggestive of an endogenous circadian clock (Omond et al., 2017). Even more interestingly, despite being closely related to other lophotrochozoans, that is, annelid (segmented) worms and mollusks (Tessmar-Raible, 2003), flatworms have secondarily lost their circulatory and respiratory systems, and endocrine glands. What remains is (1) a centralized nervous system, complete with bilobed brain (Roberts-Galbraith and Newmark, 2015); (2) a need for sleep that is regulated by sleep-wake history and induced by the evolutionarily conserved neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid, or GABA;"

A sleep-like state in Hydra unravels conserved sleep mechanisms during the evolutionary development of the central nervous system https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abb9415

"Hydra sleep was shaped by homeostasis and necessary for cell proliferation, but it lacked free-running circadian rhythms. Instead, we detected 4-hour rhythms that might be generated by ultradian oscillators underlying Hydra sleep. Microarray analysis in sleep-deprived Hydra revealed sleep-dependent expression of 212 genes, including cGMP-dependent protein kinase 1 (PRKG1) and ornithine aminotransferase. Sleep-promoting effects of melatonin, GABA, and PRKG1 were conserved in Hydra. However, arousing dopamine unexpectedly induced Hydra sleep. Opposing effects of ornithine metabolism on sleep were also evident between Hydra and Drosophila, suggesting the evolutionary switch of their sleep-regulatory functions. Thus, sleep-relevant physiology and sleep-regulatory components may have already been acquired at molecular levels in a brain-less metazoan phylum and reprogrammed accordingly."

The Jellyfish Cassiopea Exhibits a Sleep-like State https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)...

"In Cnidaria, neurons are organized into a non-centralized radially symmetric nerve net [11, 13, 15–17] that nevertheless shares fundamental properties with the vertebrate nervous system: action potentials, synaptic transmission, neuropeptides, and neurotransmitters [15–20]. It was reported that cnidarian soft corals [21] and box jellyfish [22, 23] exhibit periods of quiescence, a pre-requisite for sleep-like states, prompting us to ask whether sleep is present in Cnidaria. Within Cnidaria, the upside-down jellyfish Cassiopea spp. displays a quantifiable pulsing behavior, allowing us to perform long-term behavioral tracking. Monitoring of Cassiopea pulsing activity for consecutive days and nights revealed behavioral quiescence at night that is rapidly reversible, as well as a delayed response to stimulation in the quiescent state. When deprived of nighttime quiescence, Cassiopea exhibited decreased activity and reduced responsiveness to a sensory stimulus during the subsequent day, consistent with homeostatic regulation of the quiescent state. Together, these results indicate that Cassiopea has a sleep-like state, supporting the hypothesis that sleep arose early in the metazoan lineage, prior to the emergence of a centralized nervous system."

OPINION - Exploring phylogeny to find the function of sleep https://www.nature.com/articles/s41583-018-0098-9

"Indeed, it is interesting to consider sleep in animals that lack neurons altogether, such as sponges and the Placozoan species Trichoplax adhaerens. T. adhaerens have gland cells that are likely to contain and secrete neuropeptides91. Despite lacking neurons and muscle, T. adhaerens sense and respond to their environment and move and eat via the coordinated action of their cilia92,93,94. Sponges also lack muscles and neurons but carry genes encoding synaptic scaffold proteins95, can contract coordinately with a diurnal rhythm96 and can respond to their environment97. Evidence that Placozoa spp. or Porifera spp. have a sleep state would demonstrate that sleep is not just for organisms with neurons and would also suggest that non-neuronal cells can organize sleep behaviour." "Many plants synthesize melatonin99, although its function in plants is not elucidated100. Cassiopea jellyfish species live in a symbiotic relationship with single-cell photosynthetic algae, which provide carbohydrate fuel to these jellyfish. Do these algae also ‘sleep’ at night when photosynthetic activity is absent? Mammals are colonized with intestinal microbiota, the composition of which changes with sleep deprivation101. Should these microorganisms be considered to be sleepers? If, at its core, sleep were serving a metabolic function (see below), it is not inconceivable that plants, algae and single-cell prokaryotes will also ultimately be considered to sleep."

27. aeyes ◴[] No.41870244{4}[source]
Could it be that 8h is a "modern" sleep pattern? You can also take several shorter naps throughout the day (polyphasic sleep pattern).

But to be honest, without light there isn't much humans can do at night.

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28. danans ◴[] No.41870381[source]
> I.e. why wasn't in simpler in evolutionary terms to come up with some mechanism where 1% of the brain was dedicated to the relatively simple task of "station keeping",

Supposedly this is how dolphins sleep, shutting off part of the brain and using the other half to swim.

https://us.whales.org/whales-dolphins/how-do-dolphins-sleep/....

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29. anvil-on-my-toe ◴[] No.41870407[source]
Better to whole-ass one thing than half-ass two things. Sleep allows a focused effort on cellular repair, garbage collection, memory consolidation, and learning.

The 24-hour dark-light cycle on Earth is the most energetically significant thing that happens here, and species capitalize on the parts of the day that play to their strengths.

30. BobaFloutist ◴[] No.41870471[source]
My simple conception is that evolution loves local maxima.
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31. HarHarVeryFunny ◴[] No.41870536[source]
I think all aquatic mammals do this - they don't have much choice since they need to surface to breathe, so need to be semi-awake all the time.
32. HarHarVeryFunny ◴[] No.41870665{4}[source]
It seems that the brain needs sleep for maintenance/cleanup purposes to process and file away memories of the days activity.

Animals also burn less calories when asleep, meaning they need less food to survive. Any change to sleep less would need to have major benefits of offset the loss of this benefit, as well as only being possible if the "maintenance" need for sleep were reduced or eliminated.

33. glxxyz ◴[] No.41870790{5}[source]
I swear I used to be able to switch off my alarm clock while still fully asleep
replies(1): >>41871452 #
34. 0xdeadbeefbabe ◴[] No.41870924[source]
It never left the "does need to sleep" branch. It's not much a sci fi writer.
35. xyzwave ◴[] No.41870938{3}[source]
Therefore mutations ensure you don't get stuck there.
replies(1): >>41871232 #
36. hotspot_one ◴[] No.41871189{5}[source]
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieva...

The forgotten medieval habit of 'two sleeps'

37. Log_out_ ◴[] No.41871232{4}[source]
Then some bored postgrad adds grasshopper gears & wheels to a lab cockroach. One mutation to force evolution everywhere.

Little chitin matchbox racecaroaches everywhere ..

38. mr_mitm ◴[] No.41871452{6}[source]
Must be why there are apps that make you solve a math problem or take a picture of your bath room to turn off the alarm.
replies(1): >>41909213 #
39. michael1999 ◴[] No.41872718[source]
Because movement isn't 1% of the brain. Movement is why we have brains. Balance and head-righting do sensor fusion between vision, the vestibular system, and proprioception. That's a whole-body problem, and I don't see how that can be a low-energy activity. Brains are expensive.

We do have an unconscious falling reflex, but that works by startling us awake! Actually doing movement planning requires a running brain.

40. ◴[] No.41879066[source]
41. fennecbutt ◴[] No.41909178[source]
Exactly, it takes more time and energy to undo a mutation that unblocks a better solution than it is to mutate a solution that works with existing mutations.

It's why intelligent machines will absolutely destroy us when it comes to being "superior".

42. fennecbutt ◴[] No.41909213{7}[source]
It's exactly what I use "alarm clock xtreme" or whatever it's called. Math puzzle, retype or even scan barcode to stop alarm. It has been invaluable, especially as you can change difficulty, I found out even half asleep I could do basic addition etc...