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413 points samclemens | 62 comments | | HN request time: 1.635s | source | bottom
1. AlexErrant ◴[] No.41854344[source]
The "Technology Connections" youtube channel recently discussed awnings too. (And it had more or less the same message as this blog.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhbDfi7Ee7k

replies(2): >>41854624 #>>41861875 #
2. malfist ◴[] No.41854624[source]
And that has way more details than this. The only why supplied here is "we forgot" and "AC"
replies(5): >>41854781 #>>41854800 #>>41855852 #>>41859546 #>>41860062 #
3. zahlman ◴[] No.41854781[source]
The TC video has a lot of details about why awnings are a great idea, and about how other places are still using them and getting good results; but the reasoning offered for why we don't use them any more... still boils down to "we forgot" and "AC".

Because those are the actual reasons.

replies(3): >>41855310 #>>41857175 #>>41858570 #
4. nkrisc ◴[] No.41854800[source]
You’re right, there’s one other reason: they went out of style because not having them meant you had… AC. Ok I guess it’s just those two.
5. lesuorac ◴[] No.41855310{3}[source]
Well, I think he made a bit of a stronger accusation too then just "AC".

In that, if your property had awnings the implication was it didn't have AC (I guess people can't read/trust a listing) so you needed to remove the awnings to advertise that you had AC.

replies(1): >>41858748 #
6. bsder ◴[] No.41855852[source]
I suspect it's not really "forgot". I suspect it's "awnings require ongoing maintenance".
replies(6): >>41856109 #>>41857618 #>>41858139 #>>41858762 #>>41859159 #>>41859342 #
7. rob74 ◴[] No.41856109{3}[source]
Also, I imagine it was a hassle making sure they were closed and secured when a storm came up - and expensive to repair (not to mention dangerous) if you forgot it...
replies(1): >>41856678 #
8. parodysbird ◴[] No.41856678{4}[source]
I had an awning and a pool enclosure in South Florida. So did most houses in the neighborhood. Then the 2004 hurricane season happened, and there was neither of each around anywhere ever again.
9. michaelt ◴[] No.41857175{3}[source]
AC was indeed important. But also:

We still sometimes use things like awnings, just in the form of 'porches' or modern-looking 'slat awnings'

Changes in architectural fashion has made some forms of awning look dated.

Fabric awnings need upkeep to keep them looking smart. When the awnings are above ground level, it's semi-expensive upkeep. Building owners are tempted to keep those tired, sun-bleached awnings in place rather than renewing them - contributing to the dated reputation of awnings.

Awnings also face competition from interior curtains and blinds, which are much simpler to maintain.

And there's shifting building use. A few decades ago an office worker would prize a desk by a big window with lots of natural light to read paperwork by, but in the age of PCs nobody wants direct sunlight on their screen. Internal blinds let workers control the light levels to match their needs.

replies(3): >>41857797 #>>41860467 #>>41860767 #
10. dghughes ◴[] No.41857618{3}[source]
Also windows now have low-emissivity (low E) coatings. The coating varies light transmission depending on the sun angle. When the sun is high in summer some visible light but more UV and IR is reflected. When the sun is low in the winter more light can pass through. Pretty much what an awning does.
replies(3): >>41858617 #>>41859063 #>>41870065 #
11. upofadown ◴[] No.41857797{4}[source]
>Awnings also face competition from interior curtains and blinds, which are much simpler to maintain.

But not significant competition. If the blinds are very reflective a small amount of sunlight might end up going out again but in general, once the solar radiation converts to heat you can't get it back out through the window. That is particularly true for modern multi-pane windows.

replies(3): >>41857985 #>>41858918 #>>41863418 #
12. ygra ◴[] No.41857985{5}[source]
That's why shutters (roller or hinged) exist that are on the outside of the windows. Here in Southern Germany pretty much every window has them and since they block the sun outside the window, it can help a lot not getting the interior too warm.
replies(2): >>41858932 #>>41859796 #
13. thaumasiotes ◴[] No.41858139{3}[source]
From the piece:

> The metal frame could last for decades without needing changing, and the fabric covering would need to be replaced every 8-10 years depending on exposure and climate.

14. ◴[] No.41858570{3}[source]
15. amonon ◴[] No.41858617{4}[source]
This is very cool. How recent is this? We purchased an older house with an HOA that discourages awnings. I had been considering petitioning for one but a low-emissivity coating would be easier.
replies(1): >>41858828 #
16. graemep ◴[] No.41858748{4}[source]
Wasting money (as it would requite running the AC more) to show you have money.
replies(1): >>41859585 #
17. kmoser ◴[] No.41858762{3}[source]
A/C systems, especially central ones, also require maintenance, albeit of a much different kind. Purely from a cost perspective, awnings are probably cheaper in the long run but the demand for comfort is more compelling than the cost of maintaining an A/C system.
18. HackeNewsFan234 ◴[] No.41858828{5}[source]
Low-e windows coatings have been around since the 70's. They have gotten better over the decades, but I can't say how much they've changed. When buying new windows, this is a very common and cheap option.
replies(1): >>41861941 #
19. Retric ◴[] No.41858918{5}[source]
Awnings fail to deal with heat gain from the surrounding. So, in hot environments they can be less effective than insulating curtains inside the window which also help at night when it’s still 100+f outside.

This is especially true if you have an overhang, trees, etc providing even modest shade.

replies(1): >>41859088 #
20. Retric ◴[] No.41858932{6}[source]
External shudders don’t help when it’s 100+f at night and they are just as hot as the surroundings. This is why they’re common in Europe but not tropical countries.
replies(2): >>41870017 #>>41873596 #
21. jerf ◴[] No.41859063{4}[source]
It'd be interesting to see a study on low E coatings, the argon and other exotic fillings, and of course, ye olde "close the curtain" (which I acknowledge heats up inside the dwelling but still can reflect some) versus awnings. I wouldn't be terribly surprised that the answer comes out either that modern approaches are competitive or even superior overall (especially with the "close the curtain" backup)... but of course, a building has to actually have them before they can help, and that would still leave a decades-large temporal hole between "awnings became unpopular" and "awnings are no longer terribly useful" that can still be explored.
22. sickofparadox ◴[] No.41859088{6}[source]
They would compliment each other because the purpose of the awning is to prevent the heat of the sun from entering the house. Once it's in, even if there are insulating curtains, the heat is still in the house.
replies(3): >>41859160 #>>41859225 #>>41859853 #
23. jraines ◴[] No.41859159{3}[source]
No doubt true but I laughed reading this because I have an A/C technician working at my house right now, for like the tenth time this year.
replies(1): >>41878872 #
24. ◴[] No.41859160{7}[source]
25. Retric ◴[] No.41859225{7}[source]
It’s worth speaking in terms of energy not just heat. Sunlight bouncing off a reflective curtain and going outside is one of their benefits.

An awning is a net benefit over a curtain alone, but there’s overlap in functionality so having a curtain reduces the net saving from adding an awning.

replies(1): >>41870032 #
26. izacus ◴[] No.41859342{3}[source]
Or maybe much more simple and obvious - "they cost to be installed and the developer/builder saved some money on a thing and related labor".

Not sure how its in US, but houses here in some parts of Europe have literally become completely plain white cubes to minimize building costs as much as possible. No more roof overhangs (which brings problems), no more awnings, no decorations, practically no balconies or varied designs. Just sets of suburban white cubes.

replies(2): >>41860087 #>>41860636 #
27. hedora ◴[] No.41859546[source]
We have a fixed overhang on the side of our house instead of an awning. It’s a lot less maintenance, but it is a foot or two too short.

The problem is that we keep getting 20F-above-normal days in the fall when it lets the sun into the house.

I wonder if global warming will create a business opportunity for retrofitting houses like ours.

replies(1): >>41861537 #
28. sitkack ◴[] No.41859585{5}[source]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen
29. TremendousJudge ◴[] No.41859796{6}[source]
I have roller shutters, I like them, they're common where I live. However, they are not great for keeping heat out during the day; yeah if you close them you get protected from the heat of the sun, but also from its light. An awning will let the ambient daylight through and not turn your room into a cave
30. cruffle_duffle ◴[] No.41859853{7}[source]
> Once it's in, even if there are insulating curtains, the heat is still in the house.

While I understand this “once the heat is inside” thing I still can’t help but feel closing the curtains (and blackout curtains) makes a non-trivial impact on the overall daytime temperature of a sun facing room.

I get the goal is to reflect the energy back out and of your curtains are pure black that absorbs all the energy it would, in theory, heat the room as much as just leaving the curtain open but it still intuitively feels like you should close that curtain anyway.

I mean insulation is inside the wall of the house and it keeps the heat out. How is that any different than a set of blackout curtains besides the R value? (Hint: it’s probably the lack of insulating properties in a curtain… though there would be dead air between the curtain and window and dead air is a moderately good insulator itself.

TC should do a video on that. I’d love to see some numbers on the effect curtains have on indoor temperature.

31. lacrosse_tannin ◴[] No.41860062[source]
I bet renting has something to do with it too. I can't just start attaching awnings to the outside of this place I don't own. The landlord doesn't care if I'm hot in the summer and cold in the winter. He doesn't pay the AC bill.
replies(1): >>41860697 #
32. eitally ◴[] No.41860087{4}[source]
That's not common in the US (yet). Things here are still predominantly stick built with 2x6 framing, either on a concrete slab or concrete foundation with a dug out crawlspace. Basements are decreasingly common, even in regions where they had been the norm (due to cost, mostly).
replies(1): >>41871279 #
33. gnramires ◴[] No.41860467{4}[source]
Those 'slat awnings' look like a really good idea! (Less maintenance, air flow, letting a little bit of sunlight through)
34. AngryData ◴[] No.41860636{4}[source]
They are seriously ending the roof right at the wall? That is monumentally stupid and will guarantee a multitude of problems down the line.
replies(2): >>41861225 #>>41864713 #
35. SoftTalker ◴[] No.41860697{3}[source]
He might be paying the AC bill. In large buildings the heat and AC is central, and typically is included in the rent. The downside of this is that the decision to run AC or heat is made by the building engineer, and during the change of seasons there might be a warm (or cold) day and the AC (or heat) isn't running.
replies(1): >>41861298 #
36. fencepost ◴[] No.41860767{4}[source]
A few decades ago an office worker would prize a desk by a big window with lots of natural light to read paperwork by, but in the age of PCs nobody wants direct sunlight on their screen.

A couple decades ago I managed to wrangle a nice east-facing window. Bright sunlight in the AM was a pretty effective way to really get moving, but I couldn't wear white shirts because the reflection made my monitor unusable and there was a period each morning where I just needed to do stuff not at my PC (cubicle farm, my options were to face the window or face the corner with the window to one side).

37. izacus ◴[] No.41861225{5}[source]
Yep, e.g. france: https://www.properstar.ch/france/hesingue/buy/house

There's a crop of these hideous things I've seen around Germany, Austria, France, Switzerland and rest of central Europe.

replies(1): >>41862396 #
38. philwelch ◴[] No.41861298{4}[source]
You can buy portable heaters and air conditioners, plug them in inside your own apartment, and pay the power bill. The AC needs a way to exchange air with the outside but that can be accommodated with a window.
replies(1): >>41863612 #
39. mixmastamyk ◴[] No.41861537{3}[source]
Rollup shades can help with that.
40. aidenn0 ◴[] No.41861875[source]
Thanks, it even mentions low-e glass which I was wondering about.
41. sumtechguy ◴[] No.41861941{6}[source]
I got a new house recently. The default windows were pretty good already. My wife still did not like the amount of light coming in. I still wanted some. So we compromised. We bought reflective window tinting. About 500 bucks to do the front of the house. Will do the back next. Easily reduced the temp in house by quite a bit.

The other thing the builder did foam insulation of the garage doors and walls. Easily 20F difference from my previous house in the same area. Reflective ridged insulation in the attic too. My old house 110 easily, in the summer. It is basically the same temp as the outside now. Cost for the AC is basically half what my pervious house was. I would go for awnings at this point as it is basically one of the few things left I could realistically do. But HOA...

42. bityard ◴[] No.41862396{6}[source]
Good lord. I don't know how exactly it's constructed but I'm guessing a house made like that is either going to require extensive annual maintenance, or start rotting/crumbling in 15-20 years.
replies(1): >>41866135 #
43. DavidVoid ◴[] No.41863418{5}[source]
Where I live (Stockholm), blinds are usually between the outermost glass pane and the inner two panes (triple glazed windows). It keeps the heat out pretty well (and prevents cats from messing with the blinds).
44. malfist ◴[] No.41863612{5}[source]
Portable AC units are highly inefficient (also a TC video) because they exhaust the air conditioned air to the outside as part of the exchange.
replies(2): >>41864547 #>>41866796 #
45. shagie ◴[] No.41864547{6}[source]
There are different models.

The classic one is the single hose. There are dual hose models.

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/air-conditioner...

With the installation instructions https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/LUMAC001/Install_In... on page 11 you can see two sets of air inlets - one for the air exchange with outside, and one for the air exchange inside.

replies(2): >>41865246 #>>41884518 #
46. AtlasBarfed ◴[] No.41864713{5}[source]
So if there's a concrete skirt around the entire boundary of the house with a proper slant, wont the water run off properly?
47. malfist ◴[] No.41865246{7}[source]
Both should go outside. One should take in outside air to blow over the coils and the other to return that air back outside with the extra heat from inside. All movement of inside air should be over the other side of the condenser and not go outside or come from outside
replies(1): >>41866820 #
48. kjellsbells ◴[] No.41866135{7}[source]
The French always had a soft spot for the Modernist style of Le Corbusier. The linked property doesnt seem too far from a Villa Savoye or the Roche Jeanneret residence.

Unfortunately, the truth of both those places, and in fact all the strict Modernist/Brutalist buildings of the postwar period, is that rain absolutely f*ks them over. No amount of tar paper, roofing tile, etc., can help against a flat roof, frequent precipitation, and a temperature climate.

49. philwelch ◴[] No.41866796{6}[source]
I’m aware of this. But I lived in apartments without central AC for years, and for various reasons was unable to install a window unit. A portable AC is still significantly better than no AC at all.
50. philwelch ◴[] No.41866820{8}[source]
Yes this is how it is installed. You can see a drawing on page 13 of the PDF.

A dual hose model is still less efficient than a window unit, but it’s an improvement over a single hose design.

51. potatoz2 ◴[] No.41870017{7}[source]
Of course they help in those climates too. It's better if it's 100F inside than 120F, which is what you'll get if you let the sun in with no shade-making device. You'll find ways to get shade in every hot climate, whether arid or humid and no matter what the night temperatures are.
52. potatoz2 ◴[] No.41870032{8}[source]
Curtains work poorly at keeping heat out, in large part because the temperature differential can be extreme if you let sunlight hit the curtain (that and air convection behind the curtain).

The alternative to awnings are shutters or, like you said, plants, but not curtains.

replies(1): >>41872259 #
53. potatoz2 ◴[] No.41870065{4}[source]
I'd be interested in a link about low E coatings that depend on the sun angle, a quick search doesn't yield anything.

Either way it's not a sufficient solution because AFAIK even the best solar protection glass will let 1/3 of the sun's heat in, which is an enormous amount when you have long summer days.

54. ◴[] No.41871279{5}[source]
55. Retric ◴[] No.41872259{9}[source]
You can see curtains because photons are escaping out of the window. A white curtain reflects more sunlight outside than your room would. Similarly, a hot curtain really does emit more infrared radiation outside than your air conditioned room would. It’s not even just radiation, warming the window itself causes it to reject more heat via conduction and convection with outside air. Not all curtains are equally effective, but in full sun we can be talking a 30+ degree temperature difference between the room and a good curtain.

Shutters can effectively block sunlight, but they also emit IR radiation 24 hours a day based on their temperature. If it’s hot outside, thick reflective curtains really can save more energy across a given day than shutters though they also work better together at some point you might as wall just seal up the window.

replies(1): >>41872738 #
56. potatoz2 ◴[] No.41872738{10}[source]
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. A blind outside is just like a curtain, except that to whatever extent it heated up it is heating up directly outside (via radiation or convection). A curtain that's hot in the insulated enveloppe is strictly worse, everything else being equal (color, etc.)

The radiation of the sun has to go somewhere. More of it will be reflected back by shutters, and whatever is absorbed can more readily be dissipated outside than inside.

replies(1): >>41876215 #
57. neuralRiot ◴[] No.41873596{7}[source]
On the contrary, external shutters that are also blinds or bamboo shutters are very common in tropical climates as they allow air circulation while stopping sunlight.
58. ◴[] No.41876215{11}[source]
59. gverrilla ◴[] No.41878872{4}[source]
you must have a lot of units
replies(1): >>41889801 #
60. xnyan ◴[] No.41884518{7}[source]
Two hose is better but not perfect. The problem is the compressor body is still inside and shedding some of it's heat inside the cooling area. If your need is temporary, the inefficiency is acceptable - otherwise go with a mini split.
replies(1): >>41891705 #
61. jraines ◴[] No.41889801{5}[source]
3, but also bad luck (“dirty sock syndrome” right from the get-go) and a very hot & humid environment
62. philwelch ◴[] No.41891705{8}[source]
Mini split is better if you can install it and don’t want to install a central AC for whatever reason. I don’t think you can usually install a mini split in a rental though.

Window AC units are preferable to two hose because the compressor side hangs outside the window (and can drip the condensed water) but sometimes you don’t have double hung windows or your landlord doesn’t allow window AC units.