Furilabs Linux Phone

What I want is quality to the level of flagship android phones or the iphone with the ability to plug it in to a keyboard, mouse and screen and have it function as my laptop as well.

One single integrated experience. I think everyone wants this. We have the technology we have the demand, it's just companies who make the high quality phones want to completely lock down the market.

You would think the free market would produce a company that would tackle this issue but barrier to entry is waay to high so essentially we have small companies trying to get into this space but they are only creating sub-par products because they can't make something as good as an iphone.

It's basically a legal monopoly. Companies can't get into it because the technology and capital required are way to high and only super mega corps like samsung and apple can pull it off...

Closest thing I've seen to this product I'm looking for is the steam deck. I would buy a steam deck phone if it had the quality of a pixel/iphone device.

I agree I would love this option, but how much would you be willing to pay for such a device? Would you pay $800? $1,000? $1,400?

That's where I have a hard time. I would pay that kind of money, but I would need something well polished and fully capable of being a "daily driver." I think many people are in the same place I am, and thus we have a real chicken and egg problem here.

I'd pay up to 3k if it was quality delivered the experience of a top quality phone and a top quality laptop.

I mean the technology to do this is already here. If apple or samsung wanted to do this... they can.

Right now I use an iphone, but if samsung made a phone that felt like say linux, windows or macos when in laptop mode... I would switch off iphone in a heartbeat.

And i mean it has to feel like macOS. None of that bloat is acceptable. SteamOS actually pulls this off but in a gaming form factor.

Microsoft at one point was running full NT on ARM on phones. I think they could've done it within such price range, but didn't.

> One single integrated experience. I think everyone wants this

This is insane to me. Like not just no. Hell no. I want my phone to be a gadget, like a watch, not a whole ass computer. I want my tablet to be its own thing from my laptop, which is different from my PC(s). I absolutely, positively do NOT want general purpose computing to be the typical paradigm. I don’t want, need, or even like the idea of my phone, that I typically use like a wallet, to be a general purpose computation tool. Lock that shit down, please!

I remember Motorola showing off a concept like this in ~2012.

Asus did that in 2011 with the PadFone, it was an Android mobile phone that you could plug into the provided tabled and then plug a keyboard into that.

> I think everyone wants this.

You asked for it. I don't want that. I don't want an "integrated experience" and "flagship quality". The first sounds juvenile and the second sounds unnecessarily expensive and probably containing shit I don't need, like fancy cameras to look good on my nonexistent socials.

What I want is a simple, slow, old, efficient, simple phone with the interface of an 80s era 8bit computer that can actually, imagine this, make and, to complicate matters even further, even take calls.

I basically want an open source dumb phone. Do these exist? If not, why not focus on this first? Why go for fancy cameras and apps when we can't even make calls? Looking at your PinePhone.

But it got electrolytes?

Hmm. If I bought a phone for ~$600 and a laptop for ~$1000, I guess I’d pay ~$1700 for the converged device (adding a little bit because of the intangible benefit of not having to manage my files anymore).

> and a top quality laptop. > I mean the technology to do this is already here.

I think it really depends on what precisely you mean here. I don't think it's currently possible to get the same performance of my M3 Max MacBook Pro in the form factor of a phone.

These do (or did) exist: feature phones shipped with FirefoxOS. Almost no one bought them and the effort was widely seen as a failure, although KaiOS enjoys ongoing success in the developing world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Firefox_OS_devic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS

>I basically want an open source dumb phone. Do these exist? If not, why not focus on this first? Why go for fancy cameras and apps when we can't even make calls? Looking at your PinePhone.

Your dream is achievable and has been achieved. PinePhone for example.

I obviously don't mean everyone everyone. More like the overwhelming majority of people.

> And i mean it has to feel like macOS. None of that bloat is acceptable.

I suspect that every single thing you like about macOS is something I consider bloat (or would if that was the only related word I was allowed to use).

My first task on my recently acquired M3 MBP was to remove/hide/disable as much of macOS as I possibly could; only then can I use it as a productive development environment.

> that can actually, imagine this, make and, to complicate matters even further, even take calls

Showing how different different people are. I've probably made... 20? ish? phone calls in the last decade. (I'm 46.)

Your phone is already a general purpose computer...

I have one and it very much struggles to make and especially to receive calls and is still trying to be smart. PinePhone is definitely not a dumb phone. It's expensive as well.

To me a simple, dumb, open source device that can easily be manufactured in all kinds of conditions all over the world sounds like a dream for actual, practical purposes. Like, for example, again, calling. To some degree I have the same issues with "smart watches". Simple, open source, dumb smart watches with just a smidge of 8bit CPU goodness to display, say, something simple like a word or even a letter on the screen would be quite useful. I know there is some movement in that arena using ESP32s but I am not particularly impressed. Alas, alas. Why do we as a civilization tend to go for the extremes and not just get our basic shit together first?

I was being slightly obtuse and I understood perfectly well that you meant all reasonable people. If I can't be obtuse and pedantic on HN though, where else?

I am using a KaiOS phone, a Nokia 6300 4G. It works well as a 4G WiFi hotspot for a laptop and as a small phone for making calls and sending texts. Have a few apps on it for mapping as well as using the browser occasionally.

The KaiOS WhatsApp app will stop working next year though.

Holy moly, you must have very different life than most people I guess. I am from the younger generation which supposedly avoids making old-style phone calls as much as possible and I don't think I know anyone who has made less than 100 calls in the last decade.

I should never say "everyone" anymore. Because everyone is almost never true. I mean overwhelming majority.

Yeah but it wasn't quality right? I mean the both modes need to have a UX on par with a regular laptop and a high quality phone.

I can do something not unlike that with the second-hand displaylink adapter I currently have gathering dust... I would just need to install a desktop environment on termux for it to be complete (not sure if I could get 3D acceleration with this). The only real problem there is the adapter I have cannot charge the phone while connected.

> What I want is quality to the level of flagship android phones or the iphone with the ability to plug it in to a keyboard, mouse and screen and have it function as my laptop as well. > > One single integrated experience.

Purism achieved that with their Librem 5 phone [0]. However having a polished experience like with iPhone requires to invest billions in software. It can be used as a daily driver [1] but there's a lot to improve yet. Sent from my Librem 5.

[0] https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-co...

[1] https://puri.sm/posts/my-first-year-of-librem-5-convergence/

There was also Motorola Atrix in 2011 with similar idea.

I half agree. I dont need the bullshit bells and whistles. However a good camera doesn't mean you want to post on instagram or tiktok - maybe you just want a memory of a trip you went on or technical detail of something you want to document. People took pictures before social media.

Most every phone can already do what we want but the hardware is undocumented or locked behind NDA and the firmware is hostile. Without those locks the gigacorps cant keep you in the data-mining garden. We wont have open phones until this thinking changes. Keep dreaming until then.

> I want my tablet to be its own thing from my laptop, which is different from my PC(s).

But what's the point in owning three devices when you can own one doing everything? How about in addition an mp3 player, a camera and a flashlight, too?

Wow. Whatsapp struggles on my iphone 13; how's performance on your Nokia?!

Works fine to receive text messages and a few pictures.

LTE set that back by a lot. For years there were no VoLTE implementations in common use other than stuffs on Android. Even those had compatibility issues and lots of carriers still block unapproved clients trying to register on VoLTE.

For 3G, you could always do that. You only needed the right modem module with voice call support and audio I/O, like bare PCM pins, and a host micro to handle AT commands.

I like tools to have defined roles, not multipurpose.

I mean the top post is a ~200USD “smart” pomodoro timer. I’m not even close to that.

I use my phone for communication, quick photos/ notes and sound. It carries my cards. I want it to be completely locked down because it gets used in public and could be stolen.

I use my laptop for personal business including coding. I want it to be secure and streamlined.

I have a gaming PC, it runs widows and gaming rootkits and all kinds of questionable software. I don’t want my sensitive data around that computer.

I do art on my ipad, I want it to be about art. I dont need the phone stuff there. I don’t want my personal stuff there.

> flashlight too

lol I actually carry a flashlight with me always. Phones are absolutely garbage compared to a modern High CRI flashlight. I also have a FF camera and take it with me very frequently.

> there were no VoLTE implementations in common use other than stuffs on Android

What's wrong with the Android one - is it not permissively licensed?

I think the biggest problem of Linux phones is the community's obsession with trying (and failing) to reimplement (multiple times, in parallel) things that Android does really well and can be used as-is.

That's why the PinePhone or Librem 5 still can't even match the usability (at basic things like phone or camera or battery life) of a 2010-era Android phone, despite having similar hardware.

You want a Linux phone that actually works? Start with an AOSP-based phone and provide manufacturer-approved root and escape hatch such as first-party terminal and Wayland/X server app to run Linux apps.

Over time, you can slowly replace Android components with their Linux desktop counterparts when they're ready (or the other way around - the Android bits can just be the commonly-accepted solution to specific problems in Linux - even desktop - distros), but at least you're starting from a solid base.

> What's wrong with the Android one - is it not permissively licensed?

It is not, AOSP based distributions have to kang it from vendor builds. Qualcomm's is mostly standardized but Samsung wrote their own stack and voLTE/voNR won't work on any custom roms.

> That's why the PinePhone or Librem 5 still can't even match the usability (at basic things like phone or camera or battery life) of a 2010-era Android phone, despite having similar hardware.

They most certainly do NOT have similar hardware. You're wrong on thinking it's a software problem when the hardware being interfaced with is notoriously proprietary. The PinePhone and Librem phones are using self-contained quectel modems connected via different interfaces. They are nothing like the integrated soc's of nearly every other device on the market. This dramatically impacts battery life and stability and I don't think it will ever be a solved problem when building devices this way.

Same for me, I am 50 and would happily carry a phone sized tablet without call caps at all. I never need to call or receive call; send me an email or hit me up on a chat channel.

I think adults should read 'majority' when someone says everyone. I will keep saying it when talking with adults as it is just easier than put all the exceptions; if some people get annoyed by it, that's not really my problem.

Didn't they? The Lumia 950 launched at about $500ish and supported Continuum.

Continuum wasn't exactly full convergence, but it was kind of close. As I recall, they had a desktop dock and a laptop like dock, that you could pair your phone to (wireless or wired).

Microsoft was big on their 'universal windows app' concept at the time, where universal meant actually only ran on a small fraction of windows devices. sigh

Alternatively you could use 'most people', or any one of several equivalent expressions, and preserve the meaning of everyone as every one. There is an aroma of manipulation around using language that gives the impression of absolute consensus even if all parties involved understand its vernacular meaning. It's embellishment in service of influencing people and rightly denounced in any context where accurate communication is important.

But we are not writing a scientific paper here; we are having a discussion. I guess if it matters in the scientific sense, one would be more careful; so if the discussion would be about a new type of medicine then 'cures all people' would be a stupid thing to say. Here however, it doesn't matter. But point taken: I guess I commented as HN has especially has this nasty about of commenting on things where it indeed doesn't matter, stuff like 'citation needed' or 'but it cannot be most people, because I know blah blah blah'. Pointless let's say for this phone discussion; might be relevant for a medicine/vaccine or so.

disclaimer: just an old grumpy customer, not an industry expert.

There were pointless debates around ITU-T and 3GPP as to whether the LTE is 3.5G or 3.9G or 4G next to the pink fact elephant that _it_ is going to be _the_ next cell standard anyway. That hot debate delayed voice call discussions to post-launch matter that eventually coagulated as the VoLTE.

The Voice-over-LTE was a total kludge together that were(ARE) carrier specific implementations. In Japan at least, it seemed to have had push from KDDI, esp. with hindsight that NTT docomo and Fujitsu, both formerly influential in 3G, both seemed on fire majority of that timeframe, while Nokia being a supernova beyond fire. It would be very natural if Samsung would have made vital contributions, but I don't have much informational pressure from that direction. VoLTE is phone company mannerisms, remnants of retro-futuristic media features of 3G, weird spaghetti codes from carrier labs, and international call exchange system, all homogenized in a blender; the artefacts were co-developed pair of server and client implementations that are standardized in the way there aren't many implementations but not something carefully spec-worked before construction for interoperability. That all happened ~a decade ago. Some point between Android 4 to 10.

I suppose it was all retconned into 3GPP standards after action, but the whole stack is still like a lobotomized Android call app and private fork of Asterisk embedded into the cellular core monstrosity. I guess embedded modem people(like Quectel) had finally got to port functions into modem chip firmwares so they can make calls, after someone done it for non-smartphones(KaiOS, Smarterphone...), I think around 2019 +/- 1 year.

What I'm trying to say is, VoLTE is complicated. It's something like SIM-authenticated SIP/RTP over IP under IP, not even regular 3G data session let alone SIP-VoIP on Layer 3 UDP/IP.

Osmocom project Wiki summarizes it better than I[1]: "Voice over LTE is an adaptation by 3GPP to use IMS over an LTE cellular network. The LTE EPS (Evolved Packet System) provides the functionality of the underlying IP-CAN. ... IMS is much more than normal SIP/RTP. And in addition to that, there is a tight integration between the LTE system and the IMS on top of it."

And it's supposed to be the core feature of a phone, "not".toupper() a party trick... There are better things to do in life for most people.

1: https://osmocom.org/projects/foss-ims-client/wiki/VoLTE

aw. I completely forgot about that. Why didn't it just work? Was it... during those "we invest all our cash to everything needed for total Win32 dominance but boldly let it rot in the backlot" days of Microsoft... yes yes it was.

I always wonder why your generation avoids such calls... Voice calls are so much more efficient to get the things you want from the person you call...

I think those very total attention expected during phone calls, and the speed at which it happens, contributes to a higher level of anxiety compared to texting. The younger generation hate these elevated stresses and prefer more async communication

I beg to differ. Tried to use a kaios nokia 800 tough. Firefox/KaiOS using a stupid kind of webview for every UI, you get two consequences: first, everything is ugly: wrong padding everywhere, complex layout with non-integer number of list items fitting on screen (this is important, vertical list is the primary widget on small screen dumbphones). And second: everything is sluggish. My true "series 30" nokia launches app instantly, whereas i'm sure the SoC is order of magnitudes slower.

So the UX definitely shows complete absence of culture of design in this kind of space (eg gameboy UI design, classic dumbphone UI, ...). Small screens need very simple widgets (most importantly grid and vertical list), hand made paddings and proper space optimizations, most likely some bitmap font tailored to the resolution.. You can't just slap some dynamic layout and expect it to work nicely on such a small screen. Everything vectorized will be both costly and of dubious rendering quality, etc..

And of course these things only have "decent", but definitely not "1 month scale" battery life. I guess LTE is the real culprit here.