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185 points hhs | 47 comments | | HN request time: 0.612s | source | bottom
1. SoftTalker ◴[] No.41829404[source]
There are several tradespeople I know (electricians, plumbers, carpenters) who make more money than I do. But I don't begrudge them that, electricians do work where a mistake can literally kill you, and all of these jobs have high injury rates and will wear your body down much faster than sitting at a keyboard.

Edit: and there are no "open source" tools. You have to buy them, and good ones are not cheap.

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2. orwin ◴[] No.41829463[source]
Carpenters too? I'm not from the US but this is a crowd I know and talked to quite a bit, at least in western Appalachia. It seemed to me they are shafted quite often, as big companies hire them as subcontractors 90% of the time and underpay them. The last 10% another tradesman/local architect get a contract and hire them directly and they earn almost twice their usual pay but that's a small minority of their contracts.
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3. infecto ◴[] No.41829496[source]
Agree. Carpenter is the lowest of the trade skills unless you are in a specific niche.
4. SoftTalker ◴[] No.41829549[source]
Rough framers cutting and nailing together dimensional lumber, yes I agree that is entry-level work does not pay very well. Skilled carpenters who can do things like design and build a beautiful deck or flawless ornamental woodwork, built-in cabinets, or custom furniture, or solve a tricky framing issue in an expensive historic renovation earn much more.

I should add that all the people I know who are earning really good money in the trades put in some years, established a solid personal reputation in the area, and then started their own businesses.

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5. clusterhacks ◴[] No.41829930[source]
This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn.

I don't doubt that someone who is running a business is earning more, this article in the WSJ says:

"At the time that they sold the company, it had 18 employees and was bringing in about $3 million in revenue a year. "

This was a plumbing business with two founders, founded in 2012. The article goes on to say that PE buys smaller businesses like the one above for:

"smaller outfits (such as Rice’s), which Redwood says it buys outright for an average of $1 million..."

The Occupational Outlook handbook says:

"The median annual wage for electricians was $61,590 in May 2023. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $38,470, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $104,180." The mean annual wage for all occupations in that resource is $65,470.

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6. from-nibly ◴[] No.41830471{3}[source]
If it was entry level work my house wouldn't have the bends in it that it has.
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7. orwin ◴[] No.41830737{3}[source]
All woodworkers are not carpenters. Also to make furniture you need tools, expensive ones. Some coop exists (i've seen one in Ohio) to help independant carpenters do "built-in" furniture (especially planning the wood), but most of the time it's company material they use.

Also, in the US (at least west appalachia, but it might be all of north america), it seems that the logging/milling industry has incestuous relationships with the building industry, and it seems to be pretty hard to find cheap wood from clearcuts if you're an independant. The person who hosted me and my familly for two weeks in WV used wood he logged himself for his home and dependencies (he was 70 btw), but even for a contract he got he couldn't use the wood from the nearby mill and imported it from Ohio/Canada. And it was in 2018 so there weren't as many pressure on wood availability as post-covid or right now.

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8. sokoloff ◴[] No.41831582{4}[source]
I'm not sure I follow. Perhaps your house has bends in it because rough framing is entry-level work.
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9. mistrial9 ◴[] No.41831933[source]
in the construction I saw, there were several big groups of electricians.. a) ratty, self-employed often with serious baggage or obvious deficits.. can be paid well or very badly.. insurance is a problem; b) big company that hires and fires frequently.. wears a uniform, clean tools and trucks.. do not expect anything different than the work order, and sometimes a pawn in some kind of low-ethics moves between developers and service company; c) career, union electricians.. involved in very large, slow moving, multi-part works.. by the book, can do industrial installation in large teams; all manner of insurance, and also health care and retirement benefits. Modern times? probably add non-English speaking versions of (a) and (b). The pay varies quite a lot between those situations.
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10. throw234234234 ◴[] No.41831963[source]
There's a number of reasons for that; although I'm not based in the US so it vary. The business/self employed earn significantly more than someone working under someone else where I live. There are also a number of benefits particularly tax wise which means you normally need to discount a white-collar wage significantly to compare blue-collar wages like for like (somewhat like 30-40% at least). Official statistics you quote are usually employment and/or tax statistics - none which are reflective of the actual money available to spend for the trade worker.

Talking to them the common threads are:

- Cash based jobs. e.g. I charge my materials to the business (tax expense) and give the customer a small discount (say 10%) if they pay in cash. Assuming a 30% tax rate it means I can make for tax purposes my income less and my expenses more. In the end however I'm significantly ahead - any savings I've given to the customer are more than offset by tax savings.

- Income splitting: Wife "does the books" after hours, I split the income two ways. This way I don't pay as much tax in a regressive tax system as I can push myself to a lower tax band. If you want a single income family, better to own a trade business than be a professional. NOTE: Some countries/places support this more than others, if a country has good income splitting laws this diminishes this advantage.

- Favors: A lot of money is earned by mutual favors rather than monetary transfers especially in renovations/etc. e.g. I will do the plumbing for your house, and mine, you can do the concrete slab for both houses and we will call it square. Trades people typically know other trades people and a lot of the property can be built that way. No money exchanged, no tax paid. But the capital gains from renovations can be substantial - and tax of them can be deferred till sale. I've seen people earn millions this way, completely dwarfing their business income. Capital gains in most countries is also taxed at a lower rate and there's a lot of exemptions (i.e. if you live in it, etc). The benefits of this over many renovations can add to millions in extra wealth, none of it reported as income and under taxed.

- Asset Depreciation/Write Off: Want that big pick up truck? But want to pay the same after tax price as a small hatch? Claim it on your business, write it off, and expense it. May not apply as strongly in the US, but I've seen workers with very expensive cars here for the same after tax price as I could buy a simple sedan for. This applies to other things like tools for the house, etc.

All of the above reduces the official statistics substantially as under reporting, and makes blue collar a lot more appealing than it may seem on the surface. I would argue a self employed blue collar worker on say $120k would be as good as a white collar worker on $200k where I live, maybe even more. If you have a family and are a single income earner in some countries it makes sense to jump straight into blue collar.

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11. sokoloff ◴[] No.41832001{3}[source]
> I charge my materials to the business (tax expense) and give the customer a small discount (say 10%) if they pay in cash. Assuming a 30% tax rate it means I can make for tax purposes my income less and my expenses more.

> A lot of money is earned by mutual favors rather than monetary transfers especially in renovations/etc. e.g. I will do the plumbing for your house, and mine, you can do the concrete slab for both houses and we will call it square. Trades people typically know other trades people and a lot of the property can be built that way. No money exchanged, no tax paid.

Indeed, cheating on your taxes can leave you with extra after- (instead-of-?) tax cash in your pocket.

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12. ◴[] No.41832049{4}[source]
13. MisterBastahrd ◴[] No.41832074[source]
I come from a small town that is dominated by chemical refineries. I know people who are electricians, HVAC repairmen, plumbers, pipefitters, and process operators. You know what scares them more than anything else in the world? A corporate policy against overtime. Many of them will pick up any extra shift they can get. They LIVE for plant turnarounds where they're basically paid 24/7 for a couple of months to essentially eat, breathe, and sleep at the plant to be on call because it's how they go financially from a lower middle class lifestyle to being solidly middle class. This is what pays their mortgages, their hunting leases, their bass boats, and the limited edition F-150 to do all that stuff with.
14. ryandrake ◴[] No.41832108{4}[source]
I left a snarky comment about OP providing evidence for the IRS, but realized he mentioned he's not in the USA, so maybe those things are not taxable income in his country. If these were done in the USA, you're right--those are taxable and he'd be risking fines and jail time.
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15. ◴[] No.41832121{4}[source]
16. throw234234234 ◴[] No.41832185{5}[source]
To be clear I'm not suggesting I approve/condone this behavior. I'm just observing what people do/say they do. There's other things (e.g. phoenix companies, etc) that can boost this further. To be clear I'm not a blue collar worker myself and enjoy none of these advantages which makes it more stark when most workers around you are. With AI around the corner, at least for tech workers, they have more job security as well.

Some of the above is either not really taxable (friends doing favors), actually encouraged/legal (e.g business writeoffs), or really hard to prove especially if it is the odd job (cash). While I'm not based in the US, I imagine some/all of the above points equally apply to many countries.

The point is not one of approval/disapproval. It is one of saying that the "official statistics" are not really that useful often when it comes to blue collar work as anecdotally most blue collar workers do at least some of the above.

17. dgacmu ◴[] No.41832225{3}[source]
Or the guy I use for stuff at my house when it exceeds my comfort level (i.e., live work on 240v in the panel, things requiring a big masonry drill and conduit, etc.): he's an in-house union electrician at a university by day and moonlights doing private jobs after hours.

It's really a fantastic deal. He does exquisitely good work at a reasonable price. Not the cheapest electrician, but the price/quality is great.

18. chadcmulligan ◴[] No.41832680[source]
My nephew is a fifo sparky for some mines, his base is 200K AUD, I don't know how much he makes in allowances on top. He's on call 24 hours though and just has to fly somewhere at a moments notice.
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19. allenrb ◴[] No.41832908{3}[source]
What does “fifo” mean in this context? I’m thinking it is not “first in, first out”?
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20. tobtoh ◴[] No.41832969{4}[source]
Fly In Fly Out.

Typically, the workers fly out from a capital city to work/live at a remote mine site for several weeks, then they fly back for a couple of weeks rest, repeat.

21. diffrabox ◴[] No.41832991{4}[source]
Fly in fly out. It's common in Australia for mining and oil & gas workers to live in a capital city but fly into the work site. Their roster might be a week on followed by a week off or similar.
22. ◴[] No.41832996{4}[source]
23. from-nibly ◴[] No.41833149{5}[source]
Then it isn't entry level work. Entry level work is work you can do without experience and do it "right" in that the job gets done without errors. Shoveling concrete is entry level. Laying a proper concrete foundation is not. Operating a chop saw is entry level. Framing a house is not.
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24. frmersdog ◴[] No.41833230[source]
Something I've been thinking about recently is how much of the economy is basically just trust-peddling. Jobs and entire companies that essentially only exist to vouch for the people who do the actual work (and take a healthy cut of the pay in the process). In some cases, this is probably a useful service. In others, it's clearly preying on the trust deficits that certain people, who are otherwise hard-working, upstanding members of society, suffer from. That's parallel to how big corporations have convinced us to trust them and their representatives over independent workers. Sadly, a lot of the attempts to disrupt this status quo just end up with a new middleman.
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25. kristianp ◴[] No.41833407{3}[source]
What would he make if he were working in the local city instead? Fifo truck drivers can almost make that.
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26. ethbr1 ◴[] No.41833435{3}[source]
I'd think about it less as trust and more as risk. Specifically, risk arbitrage.

The originating buyer wants quality work, probably as a one-off, but doesn't know or want to know how to find someone like that. Everyone is high risk.

A matchmaker company in the middle has ongoing relationships with the end contractor, knows their work is decent, and provides a framework / legal liability / insurance on top. The contractors they know are lower risk.

So the matchmaker can charge {full cost of high risk - slight discount} while knowing they're actually only taking on {lower risk}.

Where it seems to go pear-shaped is when the matchmaker gets too large and can no longer individually vouch for their contractors (e.g. IBM Services and globally integrated service companies).

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27. sokoloff ◴[] No.41833440{6}[source]
We might be having a case of is/ought talking past each other.

Many people are hired onto rough framing crews with no experience. That's what defines it as entry-level work, IMO. You're saying that people without experience make errors in rough carpentry, which makes it not entry-level. (I would say that makes it "not unskilled" but still "entry-level" [because you can be hired with no experience].)

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28. chadcmulligan ◴[] No.41833476{4}[source]
60-80K I'd guess is about usual for an electrician I think, maybe 100K
29. nucleardog ◴[] No.41833515{4}[source]
Even without outright cheating... if you're able to run your money through a company, it _feels_ criminal the sorts of benefits it brings.

I do pay my wife part of my income so it hits a lower tax rate (this is fine), and she does do my books (she's a CPA, so that tracks).

But there's a staggering amount of expenses I'd normally be paying out of pocket with my post-tax dollars that are now being paid by "the company". Anything the company pays for I end up paying $0 in tax on that money. Like probably 20% of the stuff _I would be paying for anyway_ is paid for by the company and I pay 0% tax instead of 50% tax. Like, what might have been $30k/yr in expenses before now costs me $15k/yr and lets me put $7.5k in my pocket out of what's left.

Health expenses? Yeah, why not establish a self-funded company health plan and pay those out of untaxed dollars too!

It's especially stark in things like "home office" expenses... if I claim it on my personal taxes (whether from my company or working for someone else), I can't claim any mortgage interest as an expense. If I claim it as my company's place of business though I can claim that and much more.

It costs me like $60/yr to keep renewing the corporation, and if I wasn't married to a CPA probably another $600-800 for tax filing. It easily puts 10x that back in my pocket.

And I mean, yeah, it's definitely way easier to cheat on your taxes if you're so inclined. And from what I've seen of the filings my wife has done over the years for accounting firms, bending the rules is pretty much the norm. Many an argument has been had over "no, that's not the letter of the rules I'm not letting you file that" and "okay but you're throwing money away because literally everyone else does that because there's no way to catch it".

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30. sokoloff ◴[] No.41833568{5}[source]
Making retirement contributions as the employer (in addition to what you can do as the employee) is another great benefit, assuming the employees are all family.
31. ◴[] No.41833649{5}[source]
32. metaphor ◴[] No.41833665[source]
> the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn.

Looking at BLS wage statistics for tradesmen really won't tell you anything about the financial well-being of private small business entrepreneurs; you need to be looking at their company's financial statements---which is quite privileged data---for a meaningful idea.

33. wodenokoto ◴[] No.41833672{3}[source]
That doesn’t exactly sound like your average electrician job. What is your point?
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34. defrost ◴[] No.41833775{4}[source]
It's an extremely common trades path in Australia to work on minesites.

Not uncommon in Canada either.

The point was probably to meaningfully contribute to the conversation about trades and typical earnings.

It was a useful comment .. unlike, for example, yours.

35. Yeul ◴[] No.41834271[source]
It's not just about the money. Most people want a lazy bullshit office job rather than hard physical labour.

Climbing ladders isn't a lot of fun when you reach 40.

36. m463 ◴[] No.41834950[source]
I remember ~20 years ago a guy where I worked was the in-house telecom type guy, phones, network drops, etc.

Before that he was a tiling contractor. He said you could make $1m a year if you wanted to. But it was physically super demanding (that lead to his transition to telecom)

37. yetihehe ◴[] No.41836219{4}[source]
> Some coop exists (i've seen one in Ohio) to help independant carpenters do "built-in" furniture (especially planning the wood)

In EU aa lot of in-built furniture is made out of "furniture board", it's particle board with some veneer. There are a lot of local companies selling that board, you can order already cnc cut and drilled pieces, you just need to specify drilled holes positions and sizes and you can offer custom furniture. Buy some off-the shelf fasteners and you're ready to go. Made a small library shelf this way for myself and it was 2x cheaper than anything ready made, but looks perfectly profeessional. My local carpenter friend orders at the same company, made me a kitchen much cheaper than anything available at big retailers.

38. mtnGoat ◴[] No.41838022[source]
It’s very regional, for instance in Quincy Washington they are actively constructing well over a million square feet of data centers. Each one has hundreds of electricians working in it. My personal friend is clearing $350k before union benefits the last three years as an electrical foreman. They work 6 days a week 3 weeks a month and work 10 hour days in a really small town. Union work, prevailing wage, over time and completion bonuses increase the pay in these jobs to be triple what a local electrician would make doing house calls. Of the 500 heads my friend oversees, most are not even from this state. But… once those data centers are done being built the economy will crash for many local business rely on those high paying jobs. Restaurants, hotels, etc are hit hardest. And a lot of the workers will to another “hot” region, or go back to where they came from and earn half. I know a few that “retired” by 40, making $300k living in a trailer on site, in a town with nothing to do after 8, gives you a lot of chance to save money.
39. mtnGoat ◴[] No.41838105{4}[source]
Well of course producing your own wood would be cheaper than paying market rate. Lumber growers are a business too, they grow where it’s cheap and ship to market that pays best. A local guy not getting it for a discount isn’t incestuous, it’s capitalism working as intended.
40. theGnuMe ◴[] No.41838949[source]
Sitting at a keyboard for 8+ hours a day for years is super unhealthy.
41. ◴[] No.41840121{4}[source]
42. HeyLaughingBoy ◴[] No.41844391{5}[source]
It's been decades since I read this in the "IRS Small Business Tax Guide", but I still repeat it periodically. "The IRS expects that every tax payer will aggressively work to minimize their tax burden."

IOW, as long as you color within the lines, they really don't care. My tax guy is pretty good at telling me what might trigger an audit vs what IRS thinks of as perfectly normal.

43. Aeglaecia ◴[] No.41845788[source]
any reccs for an open source logic analyzer on par with saleae?
44. from-nibly ◴[] No.41853837{7}[source]
Fair enough
45. frmersdog ◴[] No.41880903{4}[source]
Trust is an appropriate metric to consider. Often, the matchmaker company isn't being evaluated on material criteria like performance; they're contracted because there is some preexisting relationship (not always direct) between decision makers at the two firms, or because they hold a certain reputation. You could say that risk to firms are lowered because liability is transferred, but that's sort of orthogonal to my point that the point of existing from the point of view of the middlemen is not to trade in risk but it trust. Risk is a commodity, trust is scarce.
46. bigfatkitten ◴[] No.41885745[source]
> This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn.

That's because high earning tradespeople are typically not wage earners. They operate their own companies.

47. bigfatkitten ◴[] No.41885755{4}[source]
Mining is about 14% of Australia's GDP. It is a very common career path for electricians, and many other trades.