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219 points skadamat | 14 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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xnorswap ◴[] No.41301135[source]
My favourite corollary of this is that even if you win the lottery jackpot, then you win less than the average lottery winner.

Average Jackpot prize is JackpotPool/Average winners.

Average Jackpot prize given you win is JackpotPool/(1+Average winners).

The number of expected other winners on the date you win is the same as the average number of winners. Your winning ticket doesn't affect the average number of winners.

This is similar to the classroom paradox where there are more winners when the prize is poorly split, so the average observed jackpot prize is less than the average jackpot prize averaged over events.

replies(6): >>41301213 #>>41302432 #>>41302595 #>>41303568 #>>41304369 #>>41305006 #
pif ◴[] No.41301213[source]
> The number of expected other winners on the date you win is the same as the average number of winners.

Sorry, but no! The total number of expected winners (including you) is the same as the average number of winners.

replies(3): >>41301245 #>>41301876 #>>41302414 #
1. xnorswap ◴[] No.41301245[source]
No, it's 1+average number of winners.

If the odds of winning are 1 in 14 million, and 28 million tickets are sold, then you expect there to be 2 winners.

If look at your ticket and see you've won the lottery, then the odds of winners are still 1 in 14 million, and out of the 27,999,999 other tickets sold, you expect 2 other winners, and now expect 3 winners total, given you have won.

replies(5): >>41301374 #>>41301753 #>>41302155 #>>41302202 #>>41302412 #
2. xnorswap ◴[] No.41301374[source]
For anyone unconvinced, let's simulate this.

Instead of 1 in 14 million, we'll just do 1 in 2, and 8 players.

So we'll check how many bits are set in the average random byte:

    void Main()
     {
      byte[] buffer = new byte[256*1024];
      Random.Shared.NextBytes(buffer);
      var avg = buffer.Average(b =>     System.Runtime.Intrinsics.X86.Popcnt.PopCount(b));
      Console.WriteLine(avg);
     }
Okay, bounces around 3.998 to 4.001, seems normal.

Now let's check how many bits are set in the average random byte given that the low bit is 1 (i.e. player 1 has won!)

    void Main()
     {
      byte[] buffer = new byte[256*1024];
      Random.Shared.NextBytes(buffer);
      var avg = buffer
       .Where(b => (b & ((byte)0x01)) == 0x01)
       .Average(b =>     System.Runtime.Intrinsics.X86.Popcnt.PopCount(b));
      Console.WriteLine(avg); 
     }
Now ~=4.500

Which is 1+3.5

In this case, we're 1+ average from the 7 other players, so being an average of 7 others not 8 others is significant.

If we simulate with millions of players, you'll see that removing 1 person from the pool makes essentially no difference.

3. melenaboija ◴[] No.41301753[source]
You are making an assumption you did not explain before and makes it confusing, you don’t know the number of winning tickets or the number of winning tickets affects the prize quantity, and not all lotteries work like that.
replies(1): >>41302765 #
4. adastra22 ◴[] No.41302155[source]
This is a variant of the Monty Hall problem, and the trick that makes it unintuitive is that you’ve snuck in the conditional of assuming you have already won.

If you have a ticket and haven’t checked that it is winning, you should expect two winners, regardless of whether you end up being one of them.

If you play the lottery trillions of times (always with the same odds, for simplicity) and build up a frequentist sample of winning events, you will on average be part of a pool of two winners in those instances where you win.

You snuck in the assumption that the first ticket checked (yours) is a winner, which screws up the statistics.

replies(1): >>41302539 #
5. burnished ◴[] No.41302202[source]
I think you forgot to mention the condition 'given that you already have a ticket', and whatever justifications are required to assume that two more winning tickets will be present (if each ticket has independent odds of being a winner then you end up with a distribution of other tickets yeah?). Otherwise your premise doesn't quite lead to your conclusion.
replies(1): >>41302628 #
6. jncfhnb ◴[] No.41302412[source]
That doesn’t work very well when the average number of winners is much less than 1. The math might work out that the “expected value” is more than one winner but in a realistic lottery you should expect to be the only winner.
replies(2): >>41302487 #>>41302508 #
7. TylerE ◴[] No.41302487[source]
I'm not sure if this is true, as large jackpots see a higher than average number of tickets sold.
replies(1): >>41302830 #
8. bluGill ◴[] No.41302508[source]
Every lottery I know of has many winners. One big winner but many who match only one numbe, and so win a tiny amount.
replies(1): >>41302614 #
9. xnorswap ◴[] No.41302539[source]
I haven't "snuck in" anything, I very explicitly stated that it's the conditional expectation I'm talking about.

Expected(Number of winners | Pop size N and You win) = 1 + Expected(Number winners | Pop size N-1)

For small p, large N, that's ~1 + Expected(number of winners).

replies(1): >>41303124 #
10. TylerE ◴[] No.41302614{3}[source]
Winners in this case means jackpot winners. This is especially relevant as unlike partial winners, the jackpot is shared, not duplicated.
11. xnorswap ◴[] No.41302628[source]
Right, I didn't spell out the format of the lottery. I'm assuming a "pick X numbers from Y" format, rather than a raffle style lottery.

This allows for multiple independent winners.

12. xnorswap ◴[] No.41302765[source]
I'm essentially assuming the UK lottery (from 96-200x) rules, where players:

Pick 6 numbers from 49, so odds are independent, and roughly 1 in 14m.

The prize jackpot is determined from a set percentage from the ticket sales, and is shared between jackpot winners.

How much the jackpot prize is therefore determined by total sales and how many winners there are.

I'm also assuming your individual ticket contribution doesn't materially affect either the prize pool or the number of people playing. For a large N, small p, this holds true.

13. jncfhnb ◴[] No.41302830{3}[source]
It is true. The average power ball does not have a winner.
14. kgwgk ◴[] No.41303124{3}[source]
The main problem with your argument is that the "average lottery winner" doesn't win JackpotPool/Average winners.