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264 points toomuchtodo | 12 comments | | HN request time: 0.668s | source | bottom
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dvektor ◴[] No.38455412[source]
Here (Maine) calls are almost $7.00/hr which is indeed outrageous, however the jobs pay 2-4x better than other prisons i've been in, the food is better, you are given more things like clothes that other prisons would make you pay for. And I am allowed to go to college, and even hold a job developing software.

So although it is absurd, I have been in other prisons where the calls are dirt cheap but they have shit food, they dont give you ANYTHING and there isn't shit for opportunities. I understand that sometimes the profit they make off the calls might be going to things like quality of the food, etc. I know that this is almost never the case, but I do know that it is somewhat the case here.

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hsbauauvhabzb ◴[] No.38456219[source]
Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation, not a self-funding machine.
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1. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.38456259[source]
> Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation

That’s one part. The others are deterrence, incapacitation, retribution and restitution [1].

Letting prisoner’s work aids rehabilitation. Letting them earn further aids restitution.

[1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...

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2. mlyle ◴[] No.38456841[source]
> Letting them earn further aids restitution.

These things have a balance, though. If you're planning on letting people out of prison one day (i.e. if they don't have a life sentence)...

And it's punitive to the point that familial relations break and people lose what little support network they have and ability to live outside of prison...

You can expect they're going to show back right up where they started. In which case, by facilitating repeated recidivism, you've neutered deterrence, incapacitation and left them unable to make meaningful restitution.

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3. KennyBlanken ◴[] No.38456985[source]
...according to one textbook, in one country, that happens to have the largest prison population in the world both per capita and in total.

> Retribution prevents future crime by removing the desire for personal avengement (in the form of assault, battery, and criminal homicide, for example) against the defendant. When victims or society discover that the defendant has been adequately punished for a crime, they achieve a certain satisfaction that our criminal procedure is working effectively, which enhances faith in law enforcement and our government.

And yet when victims and victim families are interviewed on this subject, most of them aren't terribly satisfied by criminals being "punished."

What they typically care about is that the person won't harm others, and that's where rehabilitation comes in.

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4. Vespasian ◴[] No.38458539[source]
Even for life sentences I believe it makes sense to have prisoners work and earn some small privileges inside.

For one its possible to encourage good behaviour by threatening to take it away but also because a sense of purpose and achievement is important for a healthy mental state. That's true for incarcerated people as well and a stable population reduces enforcement costs and churn among the guard personal.

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5. lupusreal ◴[] No.38458540[source]
You're focusing on retribution, but incapacitation is the primary purpose of prisons and is used even in whatever progressive European countries you think America should be emulating. Somebody like Brevik will never be released; he's being incapacitated not rehabilitated. Making sure criminals can't hurt the public again is the first priority, only then can rehabilitation even be considered.
6. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.38459062[source]
> according to one textbook, in one country

Concepts of justice are old. They tend to include these elements, though I’m open to seeing how others formalize its aims.

> when victims and victim families are interviewed on this subject, most of them aren't terribly satisfied by criminals being "punished."

Source needed. Also, retribution reduces not only victims taking the law into their own hands, but also the public.

Note that I am not saying every incarceration needs a retributive component. The American justice system is absolutely too retributive. But it’s an old institution [1] for good reason.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice

7. edgyquant ◴[] No.38459585[source]
That its rehabilitation is an extremely new view that is only found in a minority of nations. Your comment more than cuts both ways
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8. drawkward ◴[] No.38459664{3}[source]
Youre right, we should chop off the hands of thieves and stone adulturesses. </s>
9. bnralt ◴[] No.38459728[source]
> What they typically care about is that the person won't harm others, and that's where rehabilitation comes in.

I'm not sure this is true for society at large. There's zero chance that Elizabeth Holmes will pull off another Theranos, or that Sam Bankman-Fried will pull off another FTX. It's hard not to see their sentences as being entirely for retribution and deterrence (deterring others). And few if any comments here took issue with that.

10. mlyle ◴[] No.38460265{3}[source]
No one's arguing with that (though, of course, the devil is in the details...)

Just, the combination of:

- Denying people the practical ability to contact their loved ones except by phone

- Charging a price that is very high compared to outside rates for this contact (prohibitively so)

- Paying prisoners a tiny fraction of outside rates, such that

- Only people who can depend upon money coming from outside can contact family

is both cruel and probably increases recidivism.

11. indymike ◴[] No.38464513[source]
> That’s one part. The others are deterrence, incapacitation, retribution and restitution [1].

Deterrence (fail) - 44% of criminals go to jail again.

Retribution (fail) - Not sure what the value of retribution is other than deterrance. See above.

Incapacitation - a substantial number of inmates commit crimes while in prison.

We need to find a better way.

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12. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.38464798[source]
TL; DR I'm not arguing we do these things well. I'm just saying these are the components of justice.

> Not sure what the value of retribution is other than deterrance

It's irrational. But it seems fundamental to human nature. If you remove deterrence, victims and those who identify with them--which in the modern world is increasingly the public--take justice into their own hands.

The 1984 subway shooting acquittal is one example [1]. Goetz shot four people in cold blood. He was obviously guilty. But the jury acquitted, because he was seen as acting justly. (The four kids "allegedly tried to rob him," and there was a lot of unpunished robbery in New York at the time.) The reaction was in excess of self protection. But the public bought into the vengeance narrative because the criminal justice system wasn't doing it for them.

Another example was Chesa Boudin refusing to prosecute someone who unintentionally killed a kid. He said it wouldon't bring the child back. Which is true. But that infuriated the victim's family. They wanted revenge. (They got it through the recall. But most families don't have recourse to the political system to sort things out peacefully.)

> substantial number of inmates commit crimes while in prison

Not on the public. But yes, we fail at this.

> We need to find a better way

I agree. I'm describing tenets of justice. We fail to do justice in America--we do not deter, we do not incapacitate and we certainly don't rehabilitate. We're okay with restitution and retribution, though it's a statistical versus comprehensive approach.

That doesn't undermine the theory, however, which has persisted for millenia and across cultures for good reasons.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo...