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417 points mkmk | 48 comments | | HN request time: 1.266s | source | bottom
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bryan0 ◴[] No.37600873[source]
Can someone explain the mechanics of this specific trade to a noob? The trader bought 550k options yesterday for SPLK to hit $127/share? Since that seemed highly unlikely they were only priced at $.04 each. but now that SPLK is at $145/share they are worth $18 each? so that would be a profit of ~$10m?
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1. eastdakota ◴[] No.37601419[source]
Yes. The one bit you’re missing is that a call option is the right to buy a stock at a certain price typically on or before a certain date.

To make the numbers simple, imagine a stock trades at $10/share. If someone came to you and said: how much would you be willing to pay to have an option to buy the stock for $100/share? The correct answer is: it depends. If it’s the right to buy the stock for $100/share at any point over the next 10 years then that’s worth more than to buy the stock at $100/share in the next day. A stock trading at $10 is unlikely to jump to $100 in a day so the option to by it for $100 is not worth much. It could happen, so it’s worth something. But it’s unlikely. So, again to make the numbers simple, let’s say it’s worth $0.01/option to buy a stock at $100 in the next day when it’s trading at $10 today.

Now imagine it’s the next day and the company with the $10 stock discovers the cure for cancer or invents time travel or perfects cold fusion. News breaks and now it’s trading at $1,000 per share. Now how much is the right to buy the stock at $100 per share worth? The answer is going to be something really close to, but maybe a small discount from, $1,000 (current value of the stock) - $100 (how much you pay based on the option) = $900. So what was worth $0.01 yesterday is worth $900 today.

Let’s say you have $10,000 to invest. If you know in advance the news is going to break you can do two things to (probably illegally) try and profit from it.

1. Buy 1,000 shares of the stock for $10/share. 2. Buy 1,000,000 options to buy the stock for $100/share tomorrow with each option costing $0.01.

With strategy 1 you spend $10,000 to buy something that, after the news breaks, is worth $1,000,000. Not bad. But with strategy 2 you spend $10,000 to buy something that’s worth $900,000,000 after the news breaks.

In both cases you’re likely to at least be investigated. And strategy 2 seems especially suspicious because the risk is so high and the non-illegal reasons for doing it are so few and far between. Very few reasons you’d buy a bunch of call options that only pay off if something causes a stock to move dramatically in 24 hours.

Finally, while short-dated, out-of-the-money call options are not something many if anyone should be playing with, they’re just a different flavor of something very familiar. To put it in context a lot of HN readers will understand more intuitively: a call option is what you often receive when you get equity in a startup. It’s the right to purchase shares at a price (strike price) before a certain amount of time (typically 10 years).

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2. matsemann ◴[] No.37601664[source]
> And strategy 2 seems especially suspicious because the risk is so high and the non-illegal reasons for doing it are so few and far between. Very few reasons you’d buy a bunch of call options that only pay off if something causes a stock to move dramatically in 24 hours.

But why are they then legal to sell? It almost seems like someone wants to be able to sell them, but when they lose the bet they want to revert it. Free money if you're on the correct side.

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3. briffle ◴[] No.37601709[source]
I didn't have the same question as the OP, but I appreciate and learned from this well written response.. (I had never looked at options grants that way) thank you.
4. X6S1x6Okd1st ◴[] No.37601779[source]
> But why are they then legal to sell?

Things are legal until there is a law or ruling that makes them illegal

replies(1): >>37601892 #
5. ◴[] No.37601804[source]
6. tptacek ◴[] No.37601847[source]
This is great, and as good a place as any for the thread to sprawl from, so I'll ask: it depends on how you know the stock is going to shoot up the next day, right? Trading on private information isn't illegal, and there's a huge variety of ways to acquire private information at varying levels of confidence, and in a sense the purpose of the markets is to aggregate everyone's private information to estimate a price.

So a scenario I'm curious about:

Say you're, like, an employee at DataDog, and you're involved in a long-term M&A discussion with Cisco that you know is competitive (I've had the pleasure of witnessing one of these at Arbor Networks). Things are looking great, you've picked up a bunch of strong signals that Cisco is definitely going to make a move, and then: the talks fall apart.

Knowing Cisco, you immediately reach the logical conclusion that they're about to acquire your biggest competitor.

You have no fiduciary duty to Splunk whatsoever. Cisco is, if anything, hostile. Buying Splunk options that are valuable only if Cisco acquires doesn't impact DataDog at all.

Have you violated insider trading laws if you buy the options?

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7. reaperman ◴[] No.37601885[source]
Sometimes its easier to trade the right to buy/sell something than to trade the thing itself.

It’s less obvious with stocks because there’s a pretty streamlined system for taking delivery of the stock ownership but with physical goods or real estate sometimes actually changing ownership triggers a lot of regulatory or tax or process things.

For example, with real estate if you actually buy it you’ll need at minimum to get insurance to cover if any trespassers or workers get injured on the property. Lots of paperwork to transfer the title/deed, and you might be on the hook to help sort out future title / deed / survey errors. But if you never own it you save the headache of all these things.

For buying commodities you need a safe, regulated warehouse/tank to store it, handle all the ohysical logistics, etc.

By buying and selling the right to purchase the things you can delay the actual purchase until you find someone who can and wants to actually deal with the ownership of the thing.

replies(1): >>37608482 #
8. matsemann ◴[] No.37601892{3}[source]
It just feels like a casino, where if you win you get sent to jail. No risk for the house. No upside for the gambler.
replies(2): >>37602507 #>>37605674 #
9. kthejoker2 ◴[] No.37601907[source]
The issue is more that one entity bought so many.

If this was e.g. 1 million different buyers of 1 option each instead of 1 buyer of 1 million options this would be a non-story.

10. ada1981 ◴[] No.37601928[source]
It’s legal to sell / buy as long as you don’t have information that isn’t public that you are trading on.
replies(1): >>37602987 #
11. alexchantavy ◴[] No.37602075[source]
What does out of the money mean?
replies(1): >>37602345 #
12. function_seven ◴[] No.37602099[source]
I love this hypothetical. It’s a kind of “triangulation” of insider info, and I have no idea what the prevailing legal theory is. But I’m willing to bet that there is a Matt Levine article that discusses a real world scenario that mirrors this…
13. tfehring ◴[] No.37602103[source]
That practice has been referred to recently as "shadow (insider) trading". It's an actively evolving area of case law, but the SEC's opinion is yes, see https://wp.nyu.edu/compliance_enforcement/2022/01/19/sec-v-p...

Or Matt Levine on the same case: https://archive.ph/5Dlmw

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14. tptacek ◴[] No.37602276{3}[source]
Oh, neat! I hadn't read this, but my hypo is literally case (3). His answer: "who knows?". Excellent.

In my hypo and his, the origin of the private information I've acquired is still business my employer has conducted, so there's a better-than-baseline probability that the SEC would see this as misappropriation --- even if my employer wasn't directly going to trade on this, or if it was hard to trace any harm to my employer, it's still potentially not OK for me to profit from it.

replies(1): >>37603713 #
15. nlh ◴[] No.37602298[source]
Options are legal to sell because in MOST cases (where insider trading is not happening), selling call options is a nice way to get "free money" (*note not actually free) and facilitates hedging and liquidity in the market. It's a financial product like any other.

Let's take a boring case -- that $10 stock is NOT going to $1000 tomorrow, they're not finding a cure for cancer, etc. So 99.9999999/100, if you sold someone the option for $.01, it's going to expire worthless tomorrow. You have 1M shares, you sell the call options for 1M * $.01 = $10,000.

You let some other people place bets on a thing that might (but probably won't) happen, and you get $10,000 just for owning the stock. It's like an interest payment (with some risk).

If the thing DOES happen, you are taking a risk that you'll have to sell your stock for slightly less than if you'd held it, so you're giving up some potential gains.

But in the long run, this is all priced out and balances out (in theory, in an efficient market). You get $10,000 in "interest" but are taking the risk that you might lose some upside in a black swan event, and the buyers are paying a nominal amount to take a bet on the other side. They might have spent $10k in order to possibly make a $billion -- those are risks that some people price and want to take (like a lottery).

16. Projectiboga ◴[] No.37602345[source]
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042715/what-differe... Out of the money call options are long shots, you'd loose money to buy the stock today via the option vs just buying on the open market.
replies(1): >>37607348 #
17. thisisit ◴[] No.37602364[source]
The illegal part in this equation comes from the asymmetric nature of the bet. Not many sane people play naked way out of money options. 99% of the time it is a losing trade. It is like playing the lottery. Perfectly legal. But being suspicious when someone who doesn’t play lottery buys one and wins next day.

While a hedged out of money option is commonplace. various payoffs you can create with options is mind boggling.

replies(1): >>37602736 #
18. matteotom ◴[] No.37602507{4}[source]
Not necessarily - if you're a hedge fund and you think you have an algorithm that can predict gains just a tiny bit better than the call option's seller, then 99 times out of 100 you lose $x but that last 1 in 100 you might gain $x*150, and on average make money.
19. thisisit ◴[] No.37602532[source]
insider trade? Maybe not. Unethical? Yes. IANAL but this can be grounds for firing and potentially DataDog can sue for misusing what is effectively their confidential information.
replies(1): >>37603213 #
20. drexlspivey ◴[] No.37602736{3}[source]
The “naked” doesn’t apply here, the guy just bought some options. Naked/covered refers to selling options.
21. tonfa ◴[] No.37602987{3}[source]
Criteria isn't actually public vs. non public (there's another thread discussing that already).
22. shortrounddev2 ◴[] No.37603213{3}[source]
What's unethical about it
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23. eastdakota ◴[] No.37603273[source]
Think the super unsatisfying answer is:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think a lawyer would advise that that trade would come with a ton of risk. But the law isn’t clear. Generally, the SEC’s goal is to make sure markets are “fair.” What makes a market fair is hard to define.

If you do a ton of work to launch satellites to fly over Walmart parking lots and then model the correlation of how full they are to what the company’s next earnings will be: that seems like you worked hard and earned an edge you can trade on without getting in trouble. Feels like anyone has a theoretically equal opportunity to do the same work you did and get the same trading edge. That feels fair.

Your hypothetical feels less fair. Is it unfair? Maybe? So unfair that it’d be prosecuted? Probably depends on a number of things, including how much you made on the trade. At a minimum it’s an area of unsettled law. And you would almost certainly be in for serious scrutiny and a legal fight.

Supposedly one idea for Google’s business model early on was that they should use search query data to trade equities. After they researched it they concluded it would be considered insider trading. Though it’s hard to distinguish from overhearing something on the train, which (not legal advice) generally has not been. Think the difference at some level is scale and intention. And, I’d guess, if you made it your business to ride the Acela every day between Greenwich and NYC, bought special hearing aides that let you better eavesdrop on conversations, and made significant profits trading on the information then you’d be more likely to be successfully prosecuted.

But… how is that different from flying satellites over Walmart parking lots?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sometimes the law is intentionally a bit unclear. Usually in areas like this where you care about a general concept of fairness and want some caution and buffer at the margins.

replies(2): >>37603552 #>>37603966 #
24. ghaff ◴[] No.37603461{4}[source]
You’re using confidential information obtained in the course of your work duties for personal gain. I’m pretty sure my employer would consider that a business conduct violation.
replies(2): >>37603589 #>>37608102 #
25. kevinmchugh ◴[] No.37603552{3}[source]
So since you mention Wal-Mart. They have, probably, a better idea of Proctor&Gamble's quarterly sales than anybody but P&G, right? Like Walmart makes some massive double digit percentage of sales of p&g products, and knows about it possibly in real-time. If I was some data analyst at Walmart,I couldn't trade on that, that's misappropriation. But Walmart could potentially spin up a hedge fund and trade (against) their suppliers, until their suppliers threaten to pull product, I think?

Presumably there's a contract between Walmart and p&g that they won't trade in each other's stocks, specifically to prevent this?

replies(1): >>37607868 #
26. shortrounddev2 ◴[] No.37603589{5}[source]
I'm sure it's against the rules but why is it unethical
replies(1): >>37604175 #
27. growse ◴[] No.37603713{4}[source]
The thing where it gets murky though is that the theft argument needs someone to be stolen from, or defrauded.

In classical insider trading, the victims are the investors in the M&A target. I'm misappropriating MNPI about the target, so I'm essentially defrauding the target's investors.

In the "shadow" case, I think it's a harder argument to make. If I work for a potential Cisco M&A target that falls through (as per the GPP), I've got, MNPI about my org, and probably MNPI relating to Cisco. Can I defraud Splunk's investors with that?

28. kobalsky ◴[] No.37603952[source]
you can have an idea of what will happen but the timing is really important.

options change price considerably depending on the length of the contract, this required surgical precision.

29. tptacek ◴[] No.37603966{3}[source]
That framing makes a lot of sense, and does help square the difference between the "satellite imaging of Wal-mart parking lots" and "trading on intel you got working bizdev at a tech company".

It's funny how often "we'll trade equities on the information we generate as a byproduct" comes up --- always briefly --- as a tech company business model. Like, I've non-ironically been involved in companies that had that premise, and then "real" business always swamps the "we'll trade on it" intentions.

30. ghaff ◴[] No.37604175{6}[source]
Because you’re abusing your professional position and employer’s trust for personal gain.
replies(1): >>37604634 #
31. jldugger ◴[] No.37604208[source]
> Say you're, like, an employee at DataDog, and you're involved in a long-term M&A discussion with Cisco that you know is competitive (I've had the pleasure of witnessing one of these at Arbor Networks). Things are looking great, you've picked up a bunch of strong signals that Cisco is definitely going to make a move, and then: the talks fall apart.

I don't know about the law, but where I work insider trading policies also applies to vendor and supplier stocks. Trading on that info would cost me a job, at the least.

replies(1): >>37606452 #
32. shortrounddev2 ◴[] No.37604634{7}[source]
I don't see how, but more importantly I don't see who this harms
replies(1): >>37605232 #
33. outworlder ◴[] No.37605232{8}[source]
> I don't see who this harms

Every trade has a counterpart.

replies(1): >>37608089 #
34. jjav ◴[] No.37605674{4}[source]
Well no, because there is nothing illegal about the trade itself nor the profit.

What's illegal is to use insider info to make the decision to do the trade. Did the entity making this trade use insider info? We don't know. If they did not, nothing wrong with the trade.

Now, the circumstances are such that this reeks of insider info. Nobody sane would have done that trade otherwise. So hopefully the SEC will investigate fully. If it turns out the trader really did not have any connection to either of these companies and had no knowledge of the acquisition and simply made the luckiest bet of their life.. then that's fine.

replies(1): >>37608440 #
35. vGPU ◴[] No.37606307{4}[source]
The fact that you're not one of our esteemed congressmen.
36. wlonkly ◴[] No.37606452{3}[source]
In the hypothetical, though, Cisco is neither a vendor or a supplier to Datadog.
replies(2): >>37607044 #>>37607887 #
37. lsaferite ◴[] No.37607044{4}[source]
I mean, given Cisco's line of business, there's a high chance they are a supplier to a company like DataDog.
38. alexchantavy ◴[] No.37607348{3}[source]
Ah that makes sense, thank you!
39. eastdakota ◴[] No.37607868{4}[source]
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
40. jldugger ◴[] No.37607887{4}[source]
Good point, I somehow quoted that without fully reading it.
41. nurettin ◴[] No.37608089{9}[source]
Except those calls just popped into existence in the exchange. So the first trader bought them ex-nihilo.
42. eastdakota ◴[] No.37608102{5}[source]
But that’s easy to solve for to get to the crux of the issue: what if you realized it and then, on behalf of and with the blessing of your employer traded on the information?
43. matsemann ◴[] No.37608440{5}[source]
> Nobody sane would have done that trade otherwise.

But my point is that there were people on the other side more than willing to take that person's money. If "no one sane" would do that trade, why let the other side be able to profit of it until suddenly it wasn't free money? Why shouldn't the other side carry any risk?

replies(1): >>37616683 #
44. matsemann ◴[] No.37608482{3}[source]
It wasn't really a question about options in general, but these specific options. If they are either basically free money for the seller, or suspicious trading by the buyer, why allow both sides to trade like this?

The seller is basically stealing money from a "sucker", until they suddenly aren't. No value in allowing those kind if bets, then. Where the seller either wins or claim fraud. Very one sided.

replies(2): >>37613312 #>>37630323 #
45. BrandoElFollito ◴[] No.37611428[source]
This is an excellent answer for someone who has no idea about finances, thank you.

The only thing I would change is "perfects cold fusion" to "discovers cold fusion" :)

46. pierrefermat1 ◴[] No.37613312{4}[source]
From my understanding the SEC would end up taking the profits if the prosecution is successful? The seller here is not free rolling by claiming fraud on losses.
47. jjav ◴[] No.37616683{6}[source]
> But my point is that there were people on the other side more than willing to take that person's money.

What else would you propose?

Designing an algorithm that prevents people from offering or taking bad trades would require a reliable crystal ball. Solving the halting problem sounds easier.

48. snypher ◴[] No.37630323{4}[source]
The option could be used as a low cost hedge against another trade and may end up being cheap insurance for a very unique event