Mormons Make Great FBI Recruits

As a former mormon with most of my family in intelligence or military, the Security Clearance reason may be valid but I call bullshit on the language skills reason. Most mormon missionaries will never learn enough of their respective mission languages to actually have normal conversations, as 99% of their conversations revolve around religion. And the FBI doesn’t really have an emphasis on language anyway, that is more of a CIA thing (which also recruits a lot of Mormons). It’s funny how all of the glowing traits that are claimed about Mormons that are cited as reasons to hire them always come from the perspective of other Mormons.

That being said, this is the first one that I’ve read that has slightly touched on one of the major reasons: Mormon nepotism. The Mormon Mafia talk in this article may sound like a joke, but it is very much a real phenomenon. If you hire a single Mormon, and that person achieves a position of influence in your company, you will wake up some day to the realization that there are now hundreds of Mormons...and they all had a say in hiring each other, and they all give glowing reviews about each other, and they all end up in the same organizations, and they all get promoted in lockstep with each other. The Mormon Mafia isn't an FBI thing, it is a real phenomenon that happens in a lot of different places. I got a great job out of college primarily out of Mormon nepotism. I got fired after leaving Mormonism for the same reason.

A good way to prevent this from happening is, not surprisingly, a general anti-nepotism practice: don’t allow people interview candidates from their alma mater. 99% of these asshole Mormons that try to create Mormon Mafias within companies went to BYU, and 99% of the people they want to hire at the exclusion of others also went to BYU. It works surprisingly well for non-Mormon nepotism as well...never underestimate an HBS grad's tendency to think other HBS grads are the bee's knees. Don’t let them have a say in their hiring.

Best counter to workplace discrimination: more workplace discrimination.

Get an authority involved if you have proof.

> glowing traits

Nice one, if intentional

It's not really discrimination to say "you have a potential bias on this particular candidate, you shouldn't be involved in the decision".

It helps that the mormon faith is fairly harmless as far as religions go. Aside from maybe polygamy and abuse cases, there are few explicit conflicts of interests. The LDS church runs hedge funds and have a somewhat less extreme political orientation than e.g. southern baptists or Scientologists . Most Mormons actually practice the family values they preach, unlike say evangelicals.

As a former Mormon myself, I think you're being ridiculous. And frankly, you sound pretty bitter and may not be the most neutral of judges.

Mormon nepotism isn't anything more than you see from other people around their things (church, schools, even sports teams). I lived and worked in Utah County of all places for years (where huge percentage of people are Mormon) and the majority try to be open minded, tolerant, and accepting. Now if you go around shitting on their most sacred beliefs or being an asshole, don't expect it not to affect their feelings toward you, just like it would any other human. I've also lived and worked in places where I was the only Mormon (or one of 2 or 3) in the whole group.

If your claim that being Mormon causes this nepotism (rather than say, just being human as I would claim), then it must be something about their faith that causes it. Where do you think that comes from? Can you point out a teaching or belief of theirs that would encourage this?

> They will always prefer hiring other Mormons, and they will use a bunch of bullshit reasons why they’re better than others as their cover.

You realize this is what all humans do right? We make decisions emotionally and then justify them rationally, even to ourselves. Frankly I find it disturbing that you advocate against actively discriminating against a group of people on that basis. You could easily s/Mormon/gay or anything else in there and it would be exactly as truthful/accurate.

Also, the "Mormon Mafia" is a joke, not an actual thing. For most it's a self-aware attempt at humor.

I would consider that discrimination, unless it applied to all religions. e.g. if you're a Catholic, you can't interview a Catholic, etc. But even that I don't think would legally fly because (IANAL) I believe religion is a protected class.

This one went over my head

It's not discrimination because it has nothing to do with whether Mormons are hired. It has everything to do with who has a say in hiring them. BYU grads can still be hired, they just have to be hired by someone who isn't going to bias their decision with their personal beliefs.

They say there's a half-truth behind many jokes...

My dad also posts on online forums, claiming to also be a former Mormon while still having unrelentlessly positive things to say about Mormons. He's very much still a Mormon, much like I would expect you to be. Have some integrity. The vast majority of ex-Mormons are definitely bitter, and would love to destroy the church, and for a multitude of entirely valid reasons. The exmormon subreddit, which is the most popular and active of all of the ex-religion subreddits, can fill you in on exactly why exmormons are so bitter about their former religion if you're curious.

And you're right. All humans do this to some degree. Mormons, with their sanctimonious belief that they are the only ones that can receive revelation from god, seem to do it far more than other groups. Something about believing in the Power of Discernment...if the Bishop thinks this guy is a great guy, then he obviously is a great guy!

And you're also right that the Mormon Mafia is a joke, but it is only a joke within the Mormon Mafia. For everyone else, it is a career nightmare. If you, god forbid, go to a bar with a couple colleagues after work, you can expect to never be treated the same ever again. You'll be passed up for promotion, denied positions of responsibility and trust, and constantly have your work called into question. Because you're not trustworthy anymore...you're an alcoholic. Wouldn't it be nice if we had less alcoholics on our team? Gee, where can we find fewer alcoholics? I know...BYU!

EDIT: I should add, out of an abundance of caution due to the upset Mormons that I have just offended, that there are plenty of Mormons that are not like this. I'd probably say most mormons are not like this. One of the managers I work with most is a mormon, and he knows that I'm exmormon, and we get along fine. He also has hired 14 non-mormon people, including two muslims, a lesbian, and his top performer is an ex-heroin addict, so I'm pretty damn sure he's open minded about other people and isn't just looking to pack his org with like-minded people. I would never propose a measure to discriminate against mormons, but I absolutely would try to mitigate their tendency towards nepotism. There are enough mormon nepotists out there that it has become a problem, and I'm just calling that out.

this is not about Mormonism at all; just "nepotism."

when I was in Google Ads in 2008, nearly all the SmartASS team were Canadian. What are the odds?

Then when I was back in there in 2017, someone told me, "Now it's only about half."

> It’s funny how all of the glowing traits that are claimed about Mormons that are cited as reasons to hire them always come from the perspective of other Mormons.

I'm Jewish and have a pretty positive (in the standard ways) view of Mormons. Would have considered living in Utah if there were more of a modern orthodox Jewish community there. Can't imagine better neighbors.

Just anecdotal but as someone in the Pacific Northwest with a large Mormon population I have seen this occur in government and doctors offices, slowly everyone replaced by Mormons. My current office the practitioner I work with is the only non-mormon left and he's not happy about it. Mormons look out for each other, which ends up in this situation. It's nothing more nefarious than that but still off putting to those outside the church as it very much seems like a 'Mormon Mafia'.

Side note, out of prison Mormons were the only religion that actively supported ex-cons and would set you up with a place to stay and a job if you didn't have one. I seriously thought about converting just for the stability (and still might). The Catholic church had monks come to prison but I couldn't even get a visit with a priest/monk at my previous church once outside to just talk about coming back to society, my fears, and re-adjustment. Or a single parishioner to talk with. But they did offer tele-counseling (if I had insurance).

The west is trying to get rid of meritocracy not realizing the only other options that have been successfully implemented by humans are nepotism and discrimination.

In Military Bootcamp, Mormon Church was the only church they would give you food and allowed you to escape work on Sundays.

> The west is trying to get rid of meritocracy not realizing the only other options that have been successfully implemented by humans are nepotism and discrimination.

“Meritocracy” is just discrimination where the speaker agrees with the basis of discrimination, thus seeing it as “merit”. It isn’t an alternative to discrimination.

While people do love to get involved in some delicious nepotism, some groups do it more.

I have worked in the same area and I have seen a team of 35 go from 1 or 2 Mormons to 30. Slowly, the less palatable personalities were let go and replaced by friendly Molly's. So it's not as ridiculous as you are proclaiming.

It's not some huge conspiracy, but it does happen. Mormons are definitely more likely to hire someone they know from their Church than most Social Groups who source candidates internally. It's not malicious...generally it's just a matter of kinship... "Oh, I heard Jeff's daughter needs a job! Bring her in for an interview!"

Reference to the late Terry Davis' first of two favored adjectives for CIA operatives.

They never called them bigots. They're saying that the Church funds anti-lgbtq legislation and implying the Church is not completely harmless.

It's weird of you to accuse them so confidently when you misunderstood.

"Productive" is a judgement about tactics that like-minded people can disagree on. Calling someone a bigot isn't an indictment of their soul or character or motivations. It is a shorthand for describing their actions. Mormonism frequently works towards and supports discriminatory policies, and so can reasonably be described as bigoted.

They can individually act differently, but if you're associated with a politically active abrahamic religion you're gonna have to carry that cross, so to speak. No one owes anyone the benefit of the doubt on this.

So "it's okay because everyone is doing it". That also doesn't explain OP getting fired for leaving.

Not sure if it is on his resume, but once it was pretty well known that he is a high performer, he became very vocal about it. I think he is pretty invested in de-stigmatizing past drug addictions.

> As a former Mormon myself

Or Formon, as we say in the business.

I’ll see myself out now.

You are more than free to do so, I’m just letting you know that there are more productive means in case anyone hasn’t told you before :)

Certainly, but shorthand usually gets corrupted by sloganeering and shuts down productive discussions over preference.

Once you realize all politics is preference, it’s illuminating to consider more nuanced strategy.

As a non-mormon person who went through Army basic training, the Jewish service gave out food on Sundays, and everyone escaped work to go to their preferred service.

No, I simply don't accept that politics is preference. Politics is in some ways the physical manifestations of our values into the world. They affect people in real and profound ways.

A "preference" for the subservience or disenfranchisement of certain people, for example, is no mere preference.

I actually agree with what you wrote, but it’s interesting to note that many fewer people believe in universal values.

Many now believe that values are a preference (this is not something I believe, though, as I believe in objective morality, with the caveat that I realize it’s just a belief, like a belief in angels or something).

I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who went to boot camp.

Not true in my experience. Yes, we got out, but so did Catholics and Protestants and more. And we were small enough to be stuffed into a furnace room in the church building.

I still loved it. Best part of the week.

> If you hire a single Mormon, and that person achieves a position of influence in your company, you will wake up some day to the realization that there are now hundreds of Mormons...and they all had a say in hiring each other, and they all give glowing reviews about each other, and they all end up in the same organizations, and they all get promoted in lockstep with each other.

Lots of cultures do this, different asian sub-ethnicities, Jewish people, immigrants. You know who don't seem to do it much in my experience (and should), African Americans. I am opposed to nepotism personally, but I see it happen so much that I think everyone should take a crack at it if they can.

I don't know about nepotism, but I have heard the security background were easier with mormons. If you list all mormons as references and the investigators go and ask other mormons about how good and trustworthy you are as a person, what would you expect them to say?

I would also wonder what the ratio of atheists in the organizations were compared to the general population.

Also 2 hour church instead of the standard 1 hour!

of course, if OP was fired for leaving the church, that is an outrage and is grounds for legal action and/or terminating the manager. Religion (or non-religion) is a legal protected class.

But that's not what I was arguing against. I was arguing against discriminating against mormons by disallowing them from hiring/evaluating/etc another person just because they happen to be in the same faith. Unless of course you want to expand that to all faiths. I.e. no catholic can hire a catholic, etc. But then that opens up some pretty obvious other problems. Which is my point.

What's wrong with de-stigmatizing current drug addictions?

It used to be 3

As an non-member and a person who went to bootcamp experience, this is true. I don't know what branch you were in but I'm assure you this was in fact the case.

But thanks for calling me a liar, very Mormon of you.