Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

He is talking about the history of communism or socialism towards a communism system anywhere it has been applied.

That system you define there just exists in your head. It is not possible. It is like pretending the existence of unicorns. The real one every time ends up in an authoritarian regime.

I mean... if you can't believe in something that hasn't yet existed, how does anything come to be at all? Or do you deny that there is any theoretical thought behind communism at all? Is it just something people suddenly found themselves doing, and it failed and that was that?

How does someone dream of things that are better? How can you have faith in anything at all? Is not the love you feel towards your friends and family kind of like the unicorn you are describing? Do you even really feel love, if its just in your "head"?

In theory this type of intellectual engagement is fine, but if the dream turns into a nightmare Every Single Time we try it, results in untold suffering and the deaths of millions... it loses legitimacy.

If you treat people and the history of their social relations like so many petri dishes, and nothing more can be believed or assured than inputting variables and observing the output, I can see how you would have your conceits. It is just, to me, a lonely and empty way to think about humanity. Want to believe we can do better, or really just believe anything at all, which it doesn't seem your worldview would allow. But that's just me.

(Dig further with Hayek, I am sure you will find much worse things in his naive Darwinism than anything in your scary communist countries.)

> If you treat people and the history of their social relations like so many petri dishes, and nothing more can be believed or assured than inputting variables and observing the output, I can see how you would have your conceits. It is just, to me, a lonely and empty way to think about humanity. Want to believe we can do better, or really just believe anything at all, which it doesn't seem your worldview would allow. But that's just me.

First, you did not build a valid criticism about Hayek, just labeled him as Darwinist. Second, your reasonings are as if you see 1000 people jumping from a 5th floor and smashing themselves against the ground every time and still saying: there must be another possibility. No, man, it is in front of you, do some analysis, please!

> A list of socialist or communist governments now:

> [...] Argentina [...]

No.

Source: I live in Argentina and it's neither socialist nor communist. It's currently center-left capitalist. Our immediately preceding government was center-right capitalist. In the 70s we had far-right capitalist military dictatorship (Chicago boys influenced economy wise, School of the Americas trained).

I deny that there is any meaningful or worthwhile theoretical thought behind communism. It was all just made up with zero connection to objective reality.

Ok, you are right, I will study the histories of those countries in your list, and try to see what happened to them! Thank you for your point of view, it's invaluable.

I don't necessarily disagree with your comment overall but there are a lot of problems with your list and your methodology.

1: Why isn't france or china on the former or currently socialist list? There are many others.

2: Consider the volatility and violent turmoil, war, genocide, atrocities from those former and present countries from the timeperiod of german unification under bismarck (somewhat arbitrarily chosen date) to the present day.

3: There have been many non-communist and non-socialst nations which where bad and there are still such regimes in existence today.

Eliminating "communism" or "socialism" was not a cure for anything. Many of these countries share different traits which would have a much greater effect on their stability.

An extremely bold claim! In your mind, the communist project is one of the greatest and relatively most successful conspiracies to date.

Do you think that all those books people have written about it, both for and critically against, are just filled nonsense, and the writers and thinkers just had to count on the fact that nobody would actually read them? And that I, who have read a small portion, am somehow hypnotized into delusion by them, thinking I have gained knowledge, when in fact there was no knowledge to be gained at all?

I can't of course argue against this, as I am implicitly deluded in general, but I would still question your overall rhetorical strategy here.

I could understand that perhaps I am a little provocative or too radical for this crowd (and am used to the downvotes), but it is really sad/discouraging that this measured, historically-minded, and generally rational comment is getting downvoted too!

How do you define "socialist or communist government"? By some measures quite a bit of europe is at least as socialist as those countries.

(Really responding to beepbottheory's comment, to which I cannot reply)

The downvoting around here is just weird. I thought downvotes were supposed to indicate comments that were against forum rules or just unhelpful; _maybe_ offtopic? But people seem to downvote stuff they just don't like, regardless of how intelligent it might be.

It's sad, and it's deteriorating HN.

I think you're confusing socialism with welfare state. Many of the countries you claim to be socialist are free market capitalist democracies, only with more taxes, regulation and welfare than some would like.

Argentina is almost socialist in taxing terms. And 21 million of people are subsidized. I do not see a capitalist system subsidizing 21 million people. That is not capitalism. Call it something else.

1. True, France could be considered to some extent socialist. But it was never a communist system AFAIK. 2. In all countries there have been genocides, starting with Germany, one of the biggest economies. There have been genocides in lots of places a lot of times. But the mindset plays an essential role about development IMHO (this is just opinion).

3. True. I do not think a non-socialist system makes countries automatically successful. But I think that a great degree of economic freedom favors much development. There can be other problems, though.

It is difficult to identify those traits, but I always remember something someone important to me taught me since I was young: first fix it, complain later. It is not about it is your fault or not (extend this to any enemy in any society). If you choose crying and not fixing, you will face a bad fate. If you choose fixing, you can complain or not, but if it is fixed, your fate has way more chances to be a good one.

Actually it is not a black or white thing. Actually it would be better to use the economic freedom index and check where those countries fall.

Of course, if there is no private property directly, uh, that is going to be a bad one. The welfare is expensive and it is what is basically destroying my own country in my opinion: we cannot indefinitely hold a 120% debt. Besides that, I really think that it is the welfare of the politicians and many sectors of the public workers, not from the normal people that do not fall in one of those areas.

If communism was a real thing, it would have worked as predicted. It did not happen.

I think one of the worst contributions of marxism (as in incorrect) is the theory of objective value (translating from spanish, I hope I am doing it right), which basically says how much you are being stolen. In fact, there is no such thing as objective value and this is very easy to demonstrate in the experience of any of us. It is just absurd.

Yet there are people that still seem to believe it but I do not think they really think it is correct. This theory is the foundation of how much the employer steals to the worker. And that sets up a very conflictive mindset instead of a cooperative one. I believe more in cooperation. I do not deny an employer and an employee, both parts always want more. But both win together.

Isn't it interesting how you're saying a capitalist system you don't like "isn't capitalism", but you complain when others do the same with socialist systems?

This list of : socialist or communist governments now: makes absolutely no sense.

Mexico? Portugal? Argentina? Why don't you add Sweden, or even Canada by the same standards?

You know what a capitalist is in Argentina? Javier Milei (basically a libertarian). The rest goes strictly towards socialism in the sense that is more to the left from that in economic terms.

Capitalism is basically free market, no price controls, prviate property respect and low regulation. Argentina is number 148 in the index of economic freedom. Would you call that capitalist? Not me: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

How many people in USA receive food stamps or Medicare due to low income while being part or full time employees?

> (Really responding to beepbottheory's comment, to which I cannot reply)

When that happens, click the timestamp of the comment you wish to reply to to go to that comment’s page, which has a reply box in my experience.

If the only capitalist in Argentina you know is Milei (far right, self-proclaimed "libertarian", worked under a known criminal of our military dictatorship) then you're out of touch.

Really, consider how you're shifting the goalposts: you only consider far right libertarians as capitalists. The rest of the world disagrees with you.

Anyway, I live in Argentina and you don't. You are wrong.

> That is not capitalism. Call it something else.

No. You must use definitions of capitalism compatible with the current consensus. Otherwise you're playing the same game you keep accusing leftists of, "that's not true capitalism, I mean something else!".

This is not what Marx believed, he painfully toils through literally thousands of pages arguing for his theory of value, and is not that there is one objective value, which translates to the exploitation of the worker. In fact, his theory is grounded in the profound complication of what we consider 'value', specifically its duality under capitalism: "use value" and "exchange value". What you are most likely referring to is " surplus value" which is something like the amount you can point to that comes from the exploitation of the worker, but it comes from a very complicated pseudo algebra of his own design.

The best thing to pick at, if you are arguing with Marxists, is the general "labor theory of value" and whether that ultimately is correct. The labor theory of value has to do with how we assign economic value to things on the market, and that it ultimately is from the labor of those who produce the product.

Far right is the label you put to degrade Milei. Milei is a libertarian. If that looks to you like "far right" it is your call. For me those are very different things. Apart from this comment: capitalism is free market and low regulations.

By that measure, how capitalist is Argentina? As much as this in the economic freedom index, which could be considered an index of "how capitalist" a country is (position 148): https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

If this is capitalism...

I do not know what consensus you talk about. Capitalism is low or no regulation and free market. Also, should favor low taxing. Otherwise you have social democracy.

> Anyway, I live in Argentina and you don't. You are wrong.

This is a fallacy of authority, as you can see by the economic freedom index I shared with you. Position 148 next to countries like Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Ecuador... even the communist Laos has a better score in economic freedom!!! I live in Vietnam, Laos is next to where I used to live in Hanoi. If that has more economic freedom than Argentina, Argentina cannot in any way be considered capitalist as such.

"labor theory of value" -> this is what I was trying to say. Probably I did not phrase it well. I did not read the full book, but I tried to learn its main points. As incorrect as it is IMHO, it is still something everyone should study because of its impact in history.

Thing is, all of these are ultimately spawns of the same strain of Marxist socialist thought that originated in Russia with the Bolsheviks. Other, less authoritarian varieties, didn't make it for the simple reason that it was suppressed by either capitalists or by authoritarian socialists - like Luxembourgists in Germany, or like anarchists in USSR and republican Spain.

So the only conclusion that can be derived from this is that "Marxism-Leninism" inevitably leads to totalitarianism and poverty. Which is fair enough, but it doesn't really say anything about other varieties of socialism, especially the non-Marxist ones. Are you familiar with the Zapatistas, for example?

Social democracy is capitalist. Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production. It has nothing to do with free markets and economic freedom in general, or with high taxes. The only prerequisite for a capitalist system is the ability to buy and sell capital without any limits - that's why it's called capitalism, not free-market-ism or whatever. Free markets predate capitalism.

> Far right is the label you put to degrade Milei. Milei is a libertarian. If that looks to you like "far right" it is your call.

Well, he did work with a criminal from our past military dictatorship...

> . Apart from this comment: capitalism is free market and low regulations. By that measure, how capitalist is Argentina?

By that token there are no capitalist countries at all!

A capitalist country with more regulations than you'd like is exactly that: a capitalist country.

Argentina is not communist. You're embarrassing yourself.

> I live in Vietnam

I've seen you claim you live in all sorts of countries, but whatever.

You are wrong. The only people who agree with your strict definition of "capitalism" are libertarians, a tiny minority. I guess all countries in the world -- the US included -- are communist to you.

Good luck with that.

I cannot reply to ur last comment but you are spreading a lot of lies.

I have not claimed to have lived in a ton of countries. I have lived in Vietnam, in Singapore, in Spain and in places you do not need or I want to tell you. But I just claimed to have lived in those and to know, through people, other countries.

Go travel a bit and talk to foreigners and read a bit if you want to know more. But do not claim your country is not de facto socialist in many terms. It is. You do not like it? Ok, cool. But it is.

I showed you evidence. I never claimed Argentina is communist by the way. I claimed what they do is socialist-style stuff. Every day stronger and stronger, limiting freedom.

Calm down a bit and start trying to not insult everyone you do not like. You do not like me I am cool with it. But attack the argumentation, not the people.

Milei is the only person in your country honest enough to put his payroll and privileges on a lottery to not keep it for him because he is against taxes.

See you!

> Calm down a bit and start trying to not insult everyone you do not like. You do not like me I am cool with it. But attack the argumentation, not the people.

Pray tell me, does this line of debate tactics usually work for you?

> Milei is the only person in your country honest enough to put his privileges on a lottery to not keep it for him becaise he is against taxes.

"Honest" is one way of putting it. "Far right libertarian" is another. In any case, like I said, he also has an authoritarian streak.

There are two lists. One is for countries that have been at some point and the other is countries with a socialist/communist ruling recently or nowadays.

In Portugal a socialist-communist government is governing right now. It is not like they do what their supposed ideology says, but it is a fact that the government is that. Mexico is now managed by Lopez Obrador, a socialist. Argentina by Alberto Fernández. Another socialist. I agree those countries are nothing near Russia before, but it is the governments they have now.

> "Honest" is one way of putting it. "Far right libertarian" is another.

In many ways, giving a public service without taking the wealth of others and giving up you assigned salary for the task could be seen as more socialist than what mamy socialists claim. That is why, as of today, I have respect for Milei: he tries to promote what he believes starting on not making the rest pay the bill.

Things can change, sure. And politics can change people. I can change my mind. I talk about now and today. Respect for Mr. Milei. If there was a person like Milei in Spain, and not necessarily a libertarian, I would probably vote again. Now I simply cannot.

> In many ways, [Milei] giving a public service without taking the wealth of others and giving up you assigned salary for the task could be seen as more socialist

You do realize that's a publicity stunt on Milei's part, and that it's completely unrelated to socialism, right?

> If there was a person like Milei in Spain

Aren't you living in Vietnam?

Portugal is a market economy. A government party can have socialism in its name, that does not mean the government is socialist (like DPRK is not democratic at all). This is also true for many other countries on the list.

Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here. If you'd please review the rules and stick to them, we'd apprecaite it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please do not perpetuate flamewars on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

The entire have become a tirade that calls into question whether I was assaulted or not. The entire thread has hijacked with someone accusing me of still wanted to be with someone that tried to get me to kill myself and sexually assaulted me.

The person waiting and flooded the comments days after to rank their posts higher, increases the likelihood that this is the tirade of someone accused of domestic violence by two sources.

The thread's topic is completely changed by the flood of comments and I insist that it be removed entirely if you are not going to remove enough comments to reduce the thread hijack.

I looked it up.[0][1] It’s a lot. About 14.7 million Americans work full time and receive Medicare or food stamps (SNAP).

> And 21 million of people are subsidized. I do not see a capitalist system subsidizing 21 million people. That is not capitalism. Call it something else.

So by your logic, USA is a socialist country? Democratic socialist? Communist? That’s… not what most Americans would say.

> The numbers could not be fully explained by part-time schedules; about 70 percent of the 21 million people receiving Medicaid or SNAP benefits work full time, in general, the GAO said.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/18/food-stam...

[1] http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...

> 1. France could be considered to some extent socialist.

I join you in pointing out that there is not a rigidly adhered to performative standard of government classification. By that I mean for example, that while the USA is generally considered as the quintessential modern, successful democracy, it is not that, but a representative republic with deomcratic elections.

So sure, France hasn't been purely "communist" or "socialist", but the reality of the world is that there is much more going on than could be captured by a check box.

>3. It is difficult to identify those traits, but I always remember something someone important to me taught me since I was young: first fix it, complain later.

Well, we have Iran as just one example of those kind of outcomes. That course is only tolerable from one end of the bayonet. If you stab enough people if might fix every problem we have, but there will be nobody to complain later.

I guess it really is as you say: intervention just causes more intervention...

It looks like your account has been using HN primarily for ideological battle. That's a line at which we start banning accounts, regardless of what their favored ideology actually is, because this way of using HN is destructive of what the site is supposed to be for (intellectual curiosity). I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please use the site as intended, that would be good.

More explanation here in case it's helpful:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23959679

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

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