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207 points jimhi | 36 comments | | HN request time: 0.938s | source | bottom
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warning26 ◴[] No.29828947[source]
Really interesting article!

On a related note, one oddity I often see online (and, once, in person) are the die-hard groups of westerners who insist that North Korea is actually a paradise on earth and any claim to the contrary is some kind of evil capitalist propaganda. Utterly baffling, when there are so many sources like this article indicating otherwise.

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1. decafninja ◴[] No.29829115[source]
I've seen this too. Their mantra is usually something along the lines of "don't believe everything you see in the corrupt Western/South Korean media".

What gives?

I can understand different countries have different pros and cons, different people value different things, and something an American might find unpalatable might not be considered so bad somewhere else.

But North Korea seems to stand out as being one of very few countries that has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Odd that anyone who wasn't born there would willingly and voluntarily pledge their allegiance to such a regime.

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2. lisper ◴[] No.29829297[source]
My guess is that most of the people who profess to believe that everything in the DPRK is hunky dory are on the extreme political left. The right does not have a monopoly on crazy people.
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3. madeofpalk ◴[] No.29829445[source]
I can't imagine these people are on a left-right scale. They seem to be perpendicular.
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4. lisper ◴[] No.29829499{3}[source]
I've never met a DPRK supporter, but I have met Cuba supporters. They were white, non-Cuban, and leaning so far left I was surprised they could remain upright. (And I'm pretty far left myself by contemporary U.S. standards.)
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5. germandiago ◴[] No.29829528[source]
People tend to value different things. If you value hunger and corruption, go to Cuba or North Korea where you have to ask permission even to have the hair cut you want and some are illegal (NK in this case). Or you have to be treated like an animal in the customs to even make medicines or food in. I have seen this elsewhere, believe me. Those people that live from that deserve... I will not say what they deserve, but nothing good.

In the meantime, what happens is that the market is not and invention, but it "is". That is why there are black markets. And they are illegal. So what now? Easy: you have to brive all the public workers to get what you want. This is not only sad, this is attacking the dignity of the normal people who deserve a life.

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6. MiroF ◴[] No.29829546{4}[source]
I'm not a Cuba "supporter" but I do think that the quality of life in Cuba is not terrible, Western sources are not to be particularly trusted when it comes to Cuba, and that if we were serious about our opposition to authoritarianism internationally - Cuba would not be towards the top of our list compared to autocracies like Saudi Arabia.

This is very different from the DPRK.

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7. MiroF ◴[] No.29829566[source]
> If you value hunger and corruption, go to Cuba or North Korea where you have to ask permission even to have the hair cut you want and some are illegal

Cuba does not have a major hunger problem at all and has a higher life expectancy than the US.

Lumping Cuba and North Korea together is silly & misguided.

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8. germandiago ◴[] No.29829744{3}[source]
> Cuba does not have a major hunger problem at all and has a higher life expectancy than the US.

That is plainly false. There are lots of cheating in how they count that, for example, if a kid is going to have any kind of problem, they suggest and try to abort it and it does not appear in the count, to give you just one single example about how they count life expectation. There is lots more that is only make up, such as the health care myth and others.

They do have lots of doctors they send abroad and the regime gets 70% of their income. When you land abroad, if you work like that, they take away your passport so that you cannot escape. They do campaigns to donate blood and they sell that blood (over 21 million dollars in sales for blood that was supposed to be, most of it, an altruist action by cuban people in one year). They are literally treated as slaves.

Did you see what happened last July? There were riots in the streets. They did not have even medicines or food and they (the regime and its propaganda) started to talk about the embargo (incorrectly called blockage) as the problem, when the problem is that those people in that odious regime do not let even the food or medicines go through without taking a part.

I mean, they take advantage of the anguish of relatives that are outside and they smash them. After that I saw president Diaz Canel promoting violence against people for the protests from his very own words, not a translation or similar (I can speak spanish).

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9. ◴[] No.29829906{4}[source]
10. lisper ◴[] No.29829910{5}[source]
I did not mean to draw a parallel between Cuba and NK with respect to the facts on the ground, merely with respect to the arguments that are advanced for them, which in both cases are based on the premise that the conventional wisdom is wrong. Everyone I have ever met who advanced that argument with respect to Cuba was on the political left. The political right has their own version of this argument, except that they focus their skepticism on "the mainstream media" rather than "Western sources" (but IMHO both of these phrases are clearly dog whistles without an actual referent other than, "any source that disagrees with my position.")
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11. MiroF ◴[] No.29829979{6}[source]
I feel like the "West" [0] is a pretty clear referent and is not synonymous with "any source that disagrees with my position." What is it a dog whistle for?

> conventional wisdom

Talk about unclear referents! I question the existence of a universal "conventional wisdom" on political issues like these.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

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12. trasz ◴[] No.29830114[source]
How is North Korea left? It's an absolute monarchy, pretty much exactly the other side of the political compass.
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13. germandiago ◴[] No.29830183{3}[source]
> Lumping Cuba and North Korea together is silly & misguided.

They have basically the same system: more repression and strictness in North Korea. But same base: corruption, repression, intervention and treating their citizens as animals with no dignity.

14. ◴[] No.29830230{3}[source]
15. decafninja ◴[] No.29830359{3}[source]
They declare themselves to be a socialist utopia. If you believe what they say at face value, and also believe that anything negative said about the DPRK by the Western media, etc. to be total lies like some of these people being discussed here do, then I guess you could think North Korea is a leftist paradise.
16. lisper ◴[] No.29830512{3}[source]
That is, empirically, where forms of government commonly labelled as "left" ends up when taken to extremes. North Korea is just the most extreme example.
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17. Clubber ◴[] No.29830527{3}[source]
I have a 10% rule. ~10-20% of any group is gonna be a little nutty about something. 10-20% of the population doesn't believe in the moon landing. Similar with the flat earth.

They've always existed, just have microphones now.

18. lisper ◴[] No.29830550{7}[source]
Yes, I don't disagree with that. But I will point out that the literature of the groups that advocate these positions could objectively be called "Western sources" since they originate in the West, but obviously those are not what the people who produce those sources mean when they say that e.g. "Western sources are not to be particularly trusted when it comes to Cuba."

It is actually very hard to characterize a reliable source in a way that does not exhibit any sort of cultural or political bias.

19. simplestats ◴[] No.29830708{3}[source]
In South Korea, the most pro-north political parties are on the left. With the most extremely-pro-north being the extreme left.
20. fallingknife ◴[] No.29830780{3}[source]
Horseshoe theory in action:

Nazi Germany (fascist far right) -> totalitarian dictatorship that invades its neighbors and executes dissidents

Soviet Union (communist far left) -> totalitarian dictatorship that invades its neighbors and executes dissidents

21. fallingknife ◴[] No.29830870{3}[source]
The life expectancy figures are manipulated: https://www.econlib.org/about-that-cuban-life-expectancy/
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22. morticiansflame ◴[] No.29831037[source]
Regarding the haircut thing: that's actually a myth: https://youtu.be/2BO83Ig-E8E

Unfortunately it's myths like this that are shown as evidence of the /entire/ narrative around NK being false, by those who treat NK as a socialist paradise. There is a lot of poor journalism on the topic (see: myth that NK claimed to fire a rocket into the sun, myth that NK claimed to have found a unicorn, claims that KJU doesn't poop, etc) and as such it's easy to simply say that it's all made up.

Certainly not justifying those arguments at all; this just shows how easy it is for the less-critical on any side of an issue to believe whatever they want because of a few counterexamples.

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23. MiroF ◴[] No.29831283{4}[source]
I don't know that having a high abortion rate is "manipulation", they are of course going to have a high rate relative to the rest of Latin America. I cannot find a sourcing for the specific rate of abortion they cite.

The first "manipulation" identified would not impact Cuba's position as 1st in life expectancy in Latin America, as they concede in their article.

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24. sudosysgen ◴[] No.29831397{4}[source]
There are massive amounts of Cuba supporters outside of the Western world. From our point of view Cuba sucks, but for a lot of people the basic guarantees that Cuba gives and the lifestyle is actually not so bad at all. Their government also isn't much more corrupt than in the rest of the world.

I'm sure that, unsurprisingly, if you live in a majority white country, most Cuban supporters would be white and left-leaning. If you were a Cuban that supported the Cuban regime and were happy, why would you leave, taking on so much risk and expense?

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25. sudosysgen ◴[] No.29831411{4}[source]
Yeah, bullshit. What other "left" government ended up with a hereditary monarchy?
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26. germandiago ◴[] No.29832750{5}[source]
Life in Cuba is miserable for the average person. It is not just life expectancy.
27. germandiago ◴[] No.29833301{5}[source]
> I don't know that having a high abortion rate is "manipulation"

It is because if you cannot take care of a kid with some kind of problem and dies young, it lowers the life expectancy. So they encourage abortion and remove it from the count.

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28. germandiago ◴[] No.29833326{3}[source]
Is this a myth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

This is also a myth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Jap...

I wonder what they would not do to a local if they do that to foreigners.

How about this? https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/19/north-korea-horrific-pre...

The hair cut stuff is irrelevant, and sorry if it was not accurate. But the level of freedom there amounts to zero. I do not trust westerner media either all the time like a kid. I am not this silly. But hey, there is way more than that...

29. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.29833442{3}[source]
Social hierarchies emerge in even the most well intentioned left-wing society. It isn't really that odd in Vietnam, China, North Korea, all have developed new highly stratified social hierarchies. The alternative is probably unstable when extreme ideologies are imposed (which really can't survive without authoritarianism).
30. lisper ◴[] No.29834202{5}[source]
You're right, left-wing dictatorships tend not to be hereditary. NK is unique in this regard.
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31. bernawil ◴[] No.29834372{5}[source]
> If you were a Cuban that supported the Cuban regime and were happy, why would you leave, taking on so much risk and expense?

I met a Cuban like that. Simply put, to make more money. He knew the nuances of their system and was thankful for the good parts and the opportunities he had, but at the end of the day knew that for him individually it was more convenient to leave when he had the chance. It's just something that doesn't work for everybody by necessity.

I think he had a relative abroad that sponsored some sort of student visa, and he just never went back.

32. bernawil ◴[] No.29834471{6}[source]
NK is really the odd one there with the hereditary thing and all. Almost all other communist "dictatorships" are really not that different from US style corporations. Basically, organizations staffed by common people jockeying for position. Sometimes climbing the ladder on merit, sometimes politicking but you get the point. Being family with the CEO helps proably as much as being family with the head of the politburo.

And if you think about it, how much of American culture in the 20th century was a result of things that came out of corporate boards?

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33. dragonwriter ◴[] No.29834486{7}[source]
> NK is really the odd one there with the hereditary thing and all. Almost all other communist "dictatorships" are really not that different from US style corporations.

Wait, are you saying equity ownership and therefore control, of “US style corporations” isn't inheritable?

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34. bernawil ◴[] No.29834622{8}[source]
I'm saying public companies -as in trading in the stock market- (and to a lesser extent private ones too) and corporate culture is very similar to communist government.

Schumpeter said something in the lines of "it's ironic that in democratic free-market countries most economic activity happens under hierarchical top-down organizations".

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35. MiroF ◴[] No.29835232{6}[source]
Good?
36. dragonwriter ◴[] No.29835683{9}[source]
> Schumpeter said something in the lines of “it’s ironic that in democratic free-market countries most economic activity happens under hierarchical top-down organizations”.

It’s only even slightly ironic if you ignore that “free-market” is the capitalist euphemism for a society whose structure is top-to-bottom regulated (largely, through the exact shape of the imposed definition of “property rights”) around principals engineered and fought for tooth-and-nail over centuries by the capitalist (née mercantile) class to allow their heirarchical top-down organizations to replace those of the feudal aristocracy as the main driving force in society.