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214 points SkyMarshal | 6 comments | | HN request time: 0.336s | source | bottom
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saagarjha ◴[] No.28230503[source]
Better link: https://arxiv.org/abs/2106.15181

The results are fairly obvious: CMB and Hawking radiation provide almost zero power output, while an accretion disk and relativistic jets can provide a lot of power.

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kragen ◴[] No.28230601[source]
Oh cool, CC-BY!

In theory you can get an arbitrary amount of power from Hawking radiation if you have a lot of very small black holes instead of just one big one. I feel like the stability of the negative-feedback control systems for their orbits might be important here, especially if they're orbiting something you care about like your home planet.

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m_mueller ◴[] No.28230733[source]
As far as I understand, small black holes could be used as a super efficient energy storage („Kugelblitz“), but hardly as a source, assuming that primordial black holes are rare. Primordial black holes afaik are the only theorized origin of a sub stellar mass black hole at this stage of the universe‘s timeline.
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kragen ◴[] No.28231105[source]
Yeah, making tiny black holes could be pretty challenging, but I feel like it's just an engineering challenge. Is there a fundamental reason I'm missing that you can't just build a really precise, solar-system-scale particle accelerator to slam together a lot of mass into a tiny space to make tiny black holes?
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faeyanpiraat ◴[] No.28231121[source]
I don’t like the idea of having a black hole of any size in my solar system.
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hkt ◴[] No.28231230[source]
I have bad news for you:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1909.11090

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m_mueller ◴[] No.28231244[source]
this would easily be the most awesome discovery of the last 50 years if it turned out true and we could locate and study it...
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1. hkt ◴[] No.28231548[source]
Only 50?
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2. tsimionescu ◴[] No.28231844[source]
Well, in some sense, black holes are the least interesting objects in the universe - they are entirely characterized by their mass and angular velocity (possibly charge as well?).
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3. Andrew_nenakhov ◴[] No.28232072[source]
They are the least interesting objects outside. It is quite possible that inside they are much more complex than a hypothetical singularity.
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4. raattgift ◴[] No.28232248[source]
Depends on the universe.

Let's use your parenthetical as an excuse to keep charge vanishingly small, because we can avoid thinking "Which charge? Which charge carrier or carriers? What's the distribution of charges?", and largely ignore the electro- effects of electrovacuum (which answers these, but in surprising ways when you look deeply).

In a chargeless vacuum Schwarzschild or Kerr universe, we have total coordinate freedom because there is nothing there but the mass at an infintesimally small point, p. If one builds a system of coordinates with p always at a single spacelike point (say, the spacelike origin), then the symmetries of this vacuum system let one chop away spatial position (e.g. const.coord.x, const.coord.y, const.coord.z, t -> 0,0,0,t) and consequently the vector-quantity linear momenta of the black hole vanish. Moreover, these vacuum spacetimes are also eternal (the black holes do not grow or shrink), so we can do t = const. too. With suitable coordinates, gives us two free parameters: mass & spin (and in Schwarzschild, just one: mass).

These solutions do not superpose additively. By the Raychaudhuri focusing theorem, if we add a point mass to the Schwarzschild black hole universe, the two masses will eventually collide. We have broken the spherical symmetry of the Schwarzschild solution, and when we solve the geodesic equations, we find caustics, where our two infinitesimal masses can be in the same infinitesimal space. We have also broken time symmetry: at past time the two masses are spacelike separated. In the future they are not, as they will merge into one black hole. We also have the problem that the black holes move with respect to one another, so we either adapt or system of coordinates to be comoving with the black holes, or we have one or both of them move against the spatial-coordinate part of our system of coordinates.

When we take this further by breaking other symmetries than the time one, e.g. by adding angular momentum to the system, we have to consider the evolution of orbital angular momentum of the pair, and possibly the spin angular momentum of each. Either of our previous-paragraph choices with respect to encoding the coordinate evolution of the spatial distance between the pair of black holes complicates the calculation of the related vector quantities.

We're still in the land of a small number of parameters, but have gone from the three time-independent [mass, spin, charge] to eleven time-dependent [mass, spin, charge, 4-location, 4-linear momentum].

We can explode the number of parameters though by returning to "what is charge?", and equipping these universes with fields of matter. At this point one runs right into the question of: "does the no-hair conjecture hold in a physically plausible universe surrounding a theoretical black hole?" or almost equivalently "when do theoretical black holes fail to approximate astrophysical black holes?", and Ligo/Virgo are good laboratories for studying whether merging black holes go completely bald.

(The hair that is supposed to bald away may be soft and indirect: the circulation of gas and dust at a distance may reveal that a given black hole was previously more than one black hole. After merger, none of that should make a difference to anything (including a 3rd black hole) falling into the balded merged black hole that the merged black hole was previously two black holes. More critically, in the enormously distant future, the evaporation of the merged black hole should not reveal the number or types of objects that fell into it during its history, whether those are black holes or some neutral mix of standard model particles. The Hawking radiation spectrum at any moment should depend only on the eleven parameters in the previous paragraph. But maybe that still-outside dust and gas has memory that remains relevant arbitrarily far into the future. Or maybe classical general relativity is wrong and rather than being crushed into a memoryless ultramicroscopic point, the ingested gas, dust and other black holes retain or at least reveal their individual identities even during evaporation).

Questions like these make black holes extremely interesting, I think.

5. raattgift ◴[] No.28232301{3}[source]
It's possible, but as long as that stuff stays inside, we have no reason to care (or even tell) whether "inside they are much more complex than a hypothetical singularity".

The central theoretical problem is that taking Hawking seriously, the stuff inside stays inside, but inside goes away. What happens to the stuff? There are more theoretical answers to that written down than there are actual theorists, and presently no astronomical or laboratory observations which let us throw practically any of them away.

(Also of course, inside might not go away after all -- not at all or not completely -- with large numbers of explanations of how that might work, and nothing concretely observed that lets us discount such possibilities in favour of total evaporation.)

6. m_mueller ◴[] No.28232554[source]
maybe more than that, but I‘d say various discoveries during the golden age of physics would be contenders. Quantum effects, SRT & GRT, nuclear energy, among others. Black holes are just one interesting phenomenon of nature, albeit a pretty fundamental one.