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475 points danielstocks | 23 comments | | HN request time: 2.236s | source | bottom
1. cpach ◴[] No.27301861[source]
Dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27301311
replies(4): >>27301867 #>>27301873 #>>27301925 #>>27302059 #
2. tapland ◴[] No.27301867[source]
That thread got spam flagged or something and is no longer visible, but has a lot more comments and discussion.
replies(2): >>27302230 #>>27305403 #
3. kruxigt ◴[] No.27301873[source]
Why did this one disappear from the front page so fast?
replies(2): >>27303886 #>>27305474 #
4. detaro ◴[] No.27301925[source]
the linked thread was posted after this one.
5. ◴[] No.27302059[source]
6. switch007 ◴[] No.27303886[source]
Who knows, many of the HN algorithms are secret and there is no moderation log a la https://lobste.rs/moderations
replies(1): >>27305414 #
7. dang ◴[] No.27305403[source]
We've merged the comments hither now.
8. dang ◴[] No.27305414{3}[source]
True, but it's still always possible to get an answer to a question—you just have to ask. However, we might not see it unless you ask at hn@ycombinator.com.
replies(1): >>27305550 #
9. dang ◴[] No.27305474[source]
Do you mean https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27301311?

A moderator buried it for reasons explained here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27305371. Sorry for the delay, but these days you guys need to wait until I'm online to get explicit explanations, because I'm currently the only mod who's posting publicly.

replies(1): >>27308089 #
10. switch007 ◴[] No.27305550{4}[source]
I don't want to appear ungrateful - let me take this opportunity to thank you sincerely for all that you do. Your set up appears to work, and I'm probably in a minority with my demands.

We wouldn't have to ask if you had a public mod log (and banned sites list etc) and a public explanation of the algos that power HN.

Your comment reminds me of hotels - "X is available, just ask". A scheme clearly designed to reduce usage of X. I'm guessing the current audience is quite diverse, as most engineers would see through that kind of BS in about 0.2ms.

replies(2): >>27306890 #>>27307075 #
11. pvg ◴[] No.27306890{5}[source]
The moderator comments are a kind of public mod log and a thing worth looking at regularly if you're interested in how and why HN is moderated.
replies(1): >>27306967 #
12. switch007 ◴[] No.27306967{6}[source]
Are you being serious?
replies(2): >>27307122 #>>27307152 #
13. dang ◴[] No.27307075{5}[source]
I've actually written about that a lot over the years. Here are some links I dug up (mostly via https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). If you take a look at the previous explanations and still have a question I haven't addressed, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23837866

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23807944

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23286685

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23227833

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127622

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22939878

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22711604

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22648990

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22547697

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546486

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13036179

replies(1): >>27307268 #
14. pvg ◴[] No.27307122{7}[source]
Entirely
replies(1): >>27307251 #
15. dang ◴[] No.27307152{7}[source]
It's true - I use those comments to provide detailed explanations, which I often link back to. They're sort of the case law of HN moderation. It's my intention to someday compile them into some sort of compendium of moderation heuristics or something...not sure yet what that should look like.
replies(1): >>27307227 #
16. switch007 ◴[] No.27307251{8}[source]
So users are meant to first discover the key (the username) to lookup the logs? Then find a needle in a haystack of comments? Again, are you being serious.
replies(1): >>27307820 #
17. switch007 ◴[] No.27307268{6}[source]
You're cheating: you know your username and can recall which of your comments were mod log entries.

Imagine creating such a log system in a company and expecting your colleagues to find such logs in such a manner. I'd move to get you fired.

replies(1): >>27307499 #
18. dang ◴[] No.27307499{7}[source]
This feels like it's swerving into just the sort of cross-examination that I describe in the comments I just took the time to dig up for you. My purpose in doing that was not to tell you "see? anybody can just go and find these". It was, rather: here is a set of past explanations about the question you're raising, which describe our thinking on this topic. If you want to understand why we don't do what you're suggesting, you'll probably find the answer there. On the other hand, if you have a specific point that I haven't answered in the past, I'd very much like to know what it is.

The intention of all of those moderation comments, search links, etc., is to provide helpful information to people in specific contexts. Nobody's pretending that it's a global documentation system; no one's "cheating" or trying to fool anyone or trick people out of what is rightfully theirs. We're simply trying to answer people's questions and satisfy their curiosity while also staying focused on the overall purpose of the site.

replies(1): >>27307606 #
19. switch007 ◴[] No.27307606{8}[source]
I’m done if you’re playing the victim card lol. Bye
replies(1): >>27307754 #
20. dang ◴[] No.27307680{9}[source]
"Case law" is just a metaphor. The official rules are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (that would be "the law", in the metaphor), but they leave a ton of questions unanswered—there are many complexities and nuances, too many to list, and they only really make sense if you talk about them in the context of specific examples (those would be the "cases", in the metaphor).

Since people ask about specific examples all the time, and we always want to satisfy their curiosity, I post replies that go into detail about how we think about moderation, how what we did in any specific case relates to the guidelines, and ultimately how it all derives from the single thing we're trying to optimize HN for, which is curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...).

Over the years, those replies have grown into a body of explanations that add context to the site guidelines and the other brief things that have been 'officially' published about HN. That is analogous to how case law (the specific examples of how laws have been applied in the past) adds context to legal codes, which as you say can be inscrutable—they need examples to make sense. Another metaphor one could use for this is hermeneutics or midrash, but that has religious associations which would lead to distracting objections, so I don't go there. Yours is the first objection I remember anyone making to "case law"!

Of course this is not formal documentation, but it does contain all the explanation anyone could ask for—detailed answers to every conceivable question about HN moderation; just not in an easily discoverable form, as you say. That's why I'd like to compile this material into a more accessible format. We'd probably do that instead of making a public moderation log of every mod action—to come back to your original question—because it is more likely to help people understand what they're seeing. I've been waiting for the answers to converge into something that's worked-out enough to deserve publishing, but that has started to happen.

No one is expected to read that stuff, let alone find it for themselves; but I do include links to past explanations in current answers, so that anyone who wants to read more can click and get to them fairly easily. For example, here's such a link regarding the point I made in the previous paragraph: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... You'll notice that it contains the current comment, as well as 3 past ones on the same issue. It's an informal mechanism and it doesn't work perfectly (because the search links can also dig up extraneous stuff), but it's a lot better than nothing and has proven to be a good way to spread knowledge amongst the community—which is a hard problem btw.

I get why you might feel offended if we were telling you "just go dig up your answers in HN search"—that would be a little like customer support telling a user "look it up in the code, it's on Github". What we're actually telling you (and all users) is: if you have a question about how HN moderation works, just ask. If I see your question in the thread, I'll be happy to answer it—often at length, as I've done here—but we don't see everything in the threads, so it's better to email hn@ycombinator.com. The answer might end up including some links to past explanations, but you don't have to dig them up—we do that for you.

Although this mechanism is messy and insufficient, it has an interesting advantage: knowing that explanations can be reused in the future allows me to answer specific users' questions in much greater depth. If the only people reading this were you and the few others who ended up in this obscure corner of a thread while it was live, it wouldn't make sense to spend an hour writing an essay-length answer. But because the answer is helping to build a corpus of reusable explanations, the "economics" work: it's an investment in future readers in addition to current readers. Sometimes I take this to extremes, as with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27162386 from a couple weeks ago—that was a lot of writing for answering a single user, even though we value single users. But it was also a big step in expanding the "corpus", making it worth doing.

It is a nice feedback loop: individual users benefit by getting richer explanations, the "case law" (can I use that term now?) benefits by getting a new detailed entry (a worked example, you could say), and the previous examples can be linked back to, making future explanations more meaningful.

This "system" emerged spontaneously over many years, in a bottom-up way very much in keeping with the exploratory, hackerish spirit that animates HN (at its best). That's what makes it so weird and esoteric, but also why it's alive and it works. Indeed, it's the only reason why any rich body of HN explanations exists at all. A top-down, bureaucratic approach would have led to "policies"—more the line of the manichean archenemy of the HN spirit. And anyway we'd never do that in the first place.

This approach has even changed how we moderate HN: it has evolved into a continuous, multi-sided dialogue (multilogue?) between the moderation subsystem and the community subsystem, that goes deeply into the why of things, tries to discover underlying principles and reflect them back to the community. For example, it led to "we're trying to optimize for just one thing", which I linked to above. This dialogue shapes the community in turn—it helps the forum regulate itself, even (I believe) when moderators aren't present.

The next step is to mine this material out of the subterranean thread-niches it's currently buried in, and to "scale" the economics by compiling it into more definitive forms that can be linked to and browsed. Perhaps it will look like an extended HN moderation FAQ or blog. That will be easier for new users to find and hopefully also save us a lot of time in the future, because as I said above, the answers have started to converge, which makes them more repetitive.

21. cpach ◴[] No.27307754{9}[source]
Hey, relax. He’s not playing the victim. He’s just explaining how moderation works at HN.
22. pvg ◴[] No.27307820{9}[source]
I'm not sure what exactly you're asking me. There's a thing that fulfills the function of a public moderation log, an answer to your original question. What is the other stuff about? HN is absolutely full of not-particularly-discoverable UI, it's practically made of it. You've been here for over a decade.
23. kruxigt ◴[] No.27308089{3}[source]
Thanks! Yeah, too bad we didn't get an explanation. Just removing a post with lots of interesting discussions in it from the front page is not my preferred respons. Should be some better way.