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677 points saeedjabbar | 43 comments | | HN request time: 1.649s | source | bottom
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hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.23544053[source]
I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO.

I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic racism - here's a great starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7mzj0cVL0Q. She also wrote the book "White Fragility".

Thinking about that, I'm just wondering how different it would be if one of those people who mistook the employee for the CEO instead turned to the CEO and said "I'm sorry, please excuse me for the instance of racism I just perpetrated against you, I promise it won't happen again." I realize how outlandish that may sound writing that out, but I'd propose that the fact that it does sound outlandish is the main problem. Everyone in the US was raised in an environment that inculcated certain racial ideas, subconsciously or not. We can't address them if we're so embarrassed by their existence as to pretend they don't exist.

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GaryNumanVevo ◴[] No.23544345[source]
I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foundational education about race.

Even within her book she claims that no amount of training will solve the issue, it seems that "White Fragility" is just another way for White people to tamp down the anxiety of race relations in the United States, rather than take any meaningful action towards changing it.

If your goal is to truly understand the Black american experience, it's best to start with actual Black authors. The House That Race Built by Wahneema Lubiano is a great set of essays about race and class structures.

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1. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23545054[source]
There's a lot of money to be made in "anti-racism" and "gender-science", especially in tax-heavy countries. No one ever dares to question it, and it's "good" causes that could use some of the workers income.

I'll be contrarian and recommend Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" instead.

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2. GaryNumanVevo ◴[] No.23545758[source]
I'm skeptical of any American "Libertarian" especially when it comes to race. Sowell is a class-reductionist, which would make him a terrible pick for this topic.
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3. r0s ◴[] No.23545908[source]
On the contrary, there's not a lot of money to be made, and people constantly question it.

Would-be spoilers get educated about their own unrealized bias, racism continues to be a huge problem in this country, activists are vindicated and the world moves on.

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4. solveit ◴[] No.23546948[source]
Can someone get me an actual number so I know what to think?
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5. SquishyPanda23 ◴[] No.23547036[source]
> I'll be contrarian

Why do right-leaning libertarians always have to pretend they're being contrarians?

It would be clearer to just say something like "if you're interested in a conservative take on this issue, check out Thomas Sowell."

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6. scruple ◴[] No.23547061{3}[source]
Estimated at $8 billion dollars a year [0].

I found this book review [1] to be spot-on with my reading of the DiAngelo book, and this is also where I learned of the above estimate from the Washington Post.

> As a business journalist, however, I’ve chronicled the slow progress people of color have made in the corporate world, even as companies spend, by one measure, more than $8 billion a year on diversity initiatives.

[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/despite-spending-bill...

[1]: https://newrepublic.com/article/156032/diversity-training-is...

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7. seppin ◴[] No.23547102[source]
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rweblFwt-BM

contrarian =/ smart. Sometimes you are objecting for the sake of objecting.

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8. dgellow ◴[] No.23547137[source]
What is a class reductionist?
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9. zerocrates ◴[] No.23547381{3}[source]
Class reductionism is basically saying that disparities that appear to be due to race, gender, orientation, etc. are really just economic differences, so if you can "fix" the economic bit the rest just solves itself.

The term is, somewhat ironically, often applied in a reductionist manner.

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10. newen ◴[] No.23547460{4}[source]
For comparison, US film industry revenue is around $11 billion a year.
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11. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23547583[source]
Not discussing the content, but you picked a 3 minute clip out of a 36 minute long videos as if the clip was pre-made to discredit him, I understand certain people fear a black man with a contrarian point of view as it disturbs their senses, but this is a bit too much.
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12. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23547587[source]
Relax, I was contrarian in contrast to the parent, why bring your political baggage into the mix?

I doubt your definition of "right leaning libertarian", belongs to someone who adheres to pragmatism, meritocracy, multiracialism and Asian values or communitarianism, right?

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13. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23547634[source]
What would convince you otherwise? Like what would suffice in order to convince someone like you that massive sums are spent on this?

Should be in relative terms to other aspects, like health care or should it be in absolute values?

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14. runako ◴[] No.23547703{5}[source]
Nitpick: the $11B is US domestic ticket sales only. The US film industry is much bigger than US domestic ticket sales, however. (International ticket sales, cable licensing, etc.)

This is more or less obvious given that the top 10 grossing movies in 2019 took in ~ $13B in global ticket sales and < $2B of that went to non-US studios. (Also nuts is the percentages of 2019 global ticket sales attributable to the Avengers franchise and Disney.)

In 2017 US film industry revenues were ~$43B according to

https://deadline.com/2018/07/film-industry-revenue-2017-ibis...

15. ◴[] No.23547774[source]
16. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.23547811{4}[source]
i don't think we're at the diversity training incorporated stage yet, so while there may be a lot of money to be made and more to come currently I assume what is being made is a lot of very comfortable livings.

That said while I haven't read the DiAngelo book the scenario I imagine for situations like this is generally not someone waking up and saying I will write something to get some money out of these people but rather I will write something about this situation, later getting offers of more and more money and then behaviorism takes control of the journey.

It is difficult to get someone to change what they're doing once they start getting paid for doing it.

This is of course all separate from whether I might agree with the book if I read it. I can still agree 100% with someone and think that their perspective is constrained by how they have begun to profit from it.

17. jakelazaroff ◴[] No.23548030[source]
> No one ever dares to question it, and it's "good" causes that could use some of the workers income.

Questioning those things is basically mainstream conservative discourse. You’re questioning them right now.

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18. eyelidlessness ◴[] No.23548034[source]
Ah yes, the widely known and widely invested capital pursuit of opposing institutional bias. Definitely the big money
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19. eyelidlessness ◴[] No.23548052{3}[source]
I didn't even watch the clip, but if a THREE MINUTE clip is discrediting, you're either discredited on your ideas or catastrophically bad at presenting them in the format.
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20. jlawson ◴[] No.23548111[source]
The diversity industry is worth $8 billion per year these days. So... yeah.

(Also FYI, it's not about opposing institutional bias, it's about signaling and corporate power games.)

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21. Ar-Curunir ◴[] No.23548151[source]
lol are you kidding me? If "anti-racism" was actually accepted, then we would have much less racism. If gender-science were actually accepted, then we would have less discrimination against trans folks.
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22. missedthecue ◴[] No.23548179{4}[source]
Uh... I think that is more palatable viewpoint than blaming them on genetics
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23. MacsHeadroom ◴[] No.23548194{3}[source]
Revenue isn't profit. The executive coaching industry is far bigger and it's not remotely a cash cow.
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24. MacsHeadroom ◴[] No.23548200{5}[source]
The executive coaching industry is $16B/year. (And the film industry is in the hundreds of billions. That's just ticket sales, which are a tiny fraction of revenue.)
25. MacsHeadroom ◴[] No.23548236{5}[source]
Who here blamed genetics?

Robin DiAngelo explicitly said "Biologically, race isn't real. But socially, race is a very real set of socialized worldviews shaped by segregation and superficial anatomical features. The white experience of both the majority and systemically powerful is one which normalizes a rejection of the existence of our own bias and enables us to ignore the existence of radically different lived experiences."

A bias towards normalizing whiteness and being blissfully ignorant of the lived experience of others is being blamed, not genetics.

26. therealdrag0 ◴[] No.23548282{3}[source]
Where’d you get this number? First time hearing about it.
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27. watwut ◴[] No.23548658{5}[source]
I think that the alternative is supposed to be official policy of pushing some groups away and unconscious racism/sexism.
28. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23548693[source]
Right, the last guy to do that, got fired from Google.
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29. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23548700{4}[source]
Revenue and profit implies business, I am talking pure funds transferred from taxes. What does that fall under?
30. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23548706{4}[source]
Right, and nothing can be ever taken out of context or edited to fit a narrative in this day and age? Seriously, I have to argue that context is a thing?
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31. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23548736[source]
First of, what is ascribed of homophobia and racism today is a moving goal post.

When transgendered Vietnamese Jane Doe got assaulted and robbed, racism and homophobia was at play

But not when it happened to Andy Ngo.

Certain animals are better than others and thus get to set the feeding time tables, ya?

32. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23548768{3}[source]
Keep in mind when people give you examples of industry numbers like games and movies when they compare it to something funded by workers income tax.
33. tropdrop ◴[] No.23548805{3}[source]
Damore worked at Google, i.e. in the Bay Area. The Bay Area has a certain political bent (left), and running counter to it has real consequences.

But other places in the country have a different political bent (right). Chick-fil-A's anti-LGBT stance actually increased its sales (for a time, anyway). [1]

You can see this effect play out similarly when Trump says something that rankles the Twitters of Silicon Valley and New York, but which gets him even bigger approval ratings in the red states. All this to say - your points might feel like activism in the Bay Area, but that doesn't make the above poster's claim that it's mainstream conservative discourse false.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A_and_LGBT_people

34. hef19898 ◴[] No.23549082{3}[source]
And for some strange reason, for equal-rights activists it is abad thing to make a living and earn money fighting for these rights. The usual argument is always "they are paid to further an agenda", indirectly undermining the message, the messanger and the issue at hand.

This doesn't seem to aplly for the otherside. People like Alex Jones make a load of money representing the opposite opinion. For him, making money all of a sudden isn#t a problem anymore.

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35. thu2111 ◴[] No.23549147[source]
So it's not really about race, then, but about politics all along? I think you'd agree with Sowell a lot more than you imagine in that case!

Sowell has the advantage of being black, which makes his view closer to home than the vast majority of anti-racism activists, who seem to frequently be white people telling other white people what black people find offensive (see: comments on the GitHub master/main discussions).

Sowell also ends up on the receiving end of genuine racism, at least according to his own claims, in particular racism of the form "why are you conservative and telling black people to solve your own problems when you're black?", as if being black actually requires him to be on the left, or makes him some sort of race traitor if he isn't.

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36. raxxorrax ◴[] No.23549836[source]
Criticism doesn't only come from conservatives. To think otherwise is fundamental to those people believing these "things".
37. ◴[] No.23550365{3}[source]
38. SquishyPanda23 ◴[] No.23551909{3}[source]
> why bring your political baggage into the mix?

That is my point. People were having a discussion with content and you dropped into a stock political response.

Leave your baggage out of it with your claim that people espouse anti-racism for the money, your shots at high tax countries and your need to link to political dogma.

I get that it's free karma on HN, but it lowers the quality of the discussion.

39. commandlinefan ◴[] No.23552130[source]
> You’re questioning them right now.

... very cautiously, very anonymously.

40. the_omegist ◴[] No.23564009{4}[source]
No. It's perfectly fine (and even amazing) to make a living from a cause that is important to you.

But it's disingenuous to believe that activists 1) will not see what "obsess" them everywhere (that's a common psychological bias) and 2) will not try to make their cause as important as they can by inflating the numbers.

41. greenhatglack ◴[] No.23564305[source]
You assume some sort of industry I’m talking

Well-off white women from elite colleges run the diversity-and-sensitivity racket like the 17th-century Dutch ran the tulip racket, like the De Beers cartel used to run diamonds. They’re is getting paid.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/the-revolution-comfor...

42. seppin ◴[] No.23568759{5}[source]
Nothing about his political denial of science is out of context. If the video was 30 min of him denying climate change or 3, that doesn't change anything.
43. jlawson ◴[] No.23633599{4}[source]
Chapo Trap House episode about the White Fragility book.