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MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design?

(sigpipe.macromates.com)
2031 points jrk | 42 comments | | HN request time: 0.604s | source | bottom
1. ronyfadel ◴[] No.23273550[source]
I hope Apple currently has a team focused on macOS perf.

I worked on the team in charge of improving iOS (13) perf at Apple and IIRC there was no dedicated macOS “task force” like the one on iOS.

Luckily some iOS changes permeated into macOS thanks to some shared codebases.

replies(4): >>23273626 #>>23274830 #>>23274901 #>>23277478 #
2. pier25 ◴[] No.23273626[source]
> IIRC there was no dedicated macOS “task force” like the one on iOS

It's not surprising. Macs are less than 10% of Apple's revenue.

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/04/30/apple-2q-2020-earnings/

replies(6): >>23273776 #>>23273824 #>>23274073 #>>23274195 #>>23276536 #>>23281493 #
3. qppo ◴[] No.23273776[source]
It's surprising that they don't improve the developer experience for their own developers using their own tools, including hardware.
replies(4): >>23273796 #>>23274026 #>>23274029 #>>23274292 #
4. pier25 ◴[] No.23273796{3}[source]
Maybe internally they are using a different version of macOS?
replies(2): >>23273937 #>>23274007 #
5. robotresearcher ◴[] No.23273824[source]
But at Apple scale: 9% of $58 billion = $5.2 billion Mac revenue last quarter.
replies(2): >>23274149 #>>23274711 #
6. azinman2 ◴[] No.23273937{4}[source]
Nope
7. saagarjha ◴[] No.23274007{4}[source]
It’s basically the same ones you’re running, possibly a couple builds ahead and with all the security features turned off.
8. saagarjha ◴[] No.23274026{3}[source]
Apple uses the same tools you do. They just might not be using it like you are; you can find a lot of features that clearly have no reason to exist outside of Apple nonetheless shipping with their software.
replies(3): >>23274143 #>>23274191 #>>23277538 #
9. callinyouin ◴[] No.23274029{3}[source]
I wouldn't be surprised if they've determined that developers will generally put up with a bad experience in order to have access to the massive iOS market.
10. goatinaboat ◴[] No.23274073[source]
It's not surprising. Macs are less than 10% of Apple's revenue.

Without Macs for developers and other content creators that other 90% doesn’t exist.

replies(1): >>23274204 #
11. asdff ◴[] No.23274143{4}[source]
Is there a list somewhere of Apple's in house dev environments or workflows? I wonder what cool tricks they use internally that could be pretty useful generally.
replies(2): >>23274688 #>>23277415 #
12. ksec ◴[] No.23274149{3}[source]
Yes, that is what drives me crazy whenever people say Mac is only 9% of revenue and they dont care about it.

If the Mac revenue was separated out on its own, it would be about Fortune 120, that is higher than Kraft Heinz. With plenty more space for growth. Apple only has 100M Active Mac users. There are 1.4B Windows PC.

13. qppo ◴[] No.23274191{4}[source]
That's kind of my point - it's surprising to me that they're shipping slow hardware and software, when they're used to develop that same hardware and software. Developer time is expensive.
replies(1): >>23275926 #
14. robenkleene ◴[] No.23274195[source]
Except all of Apple's other devices are built on macOS. Apple's clear de-prioritization of macOS based on revenue numbers is so insane I can barely believe it's happening. If developers, who use Macs in large numbers today, go to another platform, there's very real risk that their entire empire starts to come apart at the seams. And, this may just be me being naive, but it doesn't seem like that much work to keep macOS going, all they have to do is stop trying to turn it into iOS. They are literally doing a tremendous amount of active engineering work that drives developers away from their platforms.

They are risking their entire empire because (apparently) someone at Apple has an axe to grind with macOS's Unix underpinnings. And until they start getting real consequences (developer's leaving in huge numbers), it doesn't seem like it's going to stop. The tragedy is, if they ever do reach that point, where developers are leaving in huge numbers, it'll be too late. Platforms are a momentum game, you're either going up, or you're going down. And once you're going down, you're as good as dead.

replies(3): >>23275290 #>>23276618 #>>23277432 #
15. ARandomerDude ◴[] No.23274204{3}[source]
Exactly. Especially given the Xcode lock-in nonsense.
16. arvinsim ◴[] No.23274292{3}[source]
There isn't much incentive to improve because they know that people will buy their hardware regardless.

Not to mention people defend and market their products for free.

17. ronyfadel ◴[] No.23274688{5}[source]
Very messy internally, every team has their own.
18. pier25 ◴[] No.23274711{3}[source]
OTOH when Apple was a much smaller company the mac was much more important to them and it showed.

Maybe it's not related to revenue per se, but clearly since iOS became their main thing the Mac has suffered tremendously.

replies(1): >>23274822 #
19. ◴[] No.23274822{4}[source]
20. markdog12 ◴[] No.23274830[source]
What changes permeated into macOS? What did your team do to improve iOS perf?
replies(2): >>23275084 #>>23275276 #
21. bentcorner ◴[] No.23274901[source]
I agree. This kind of behavior certainly smells like teams doing their development work on high-capacity low-latency networks without much performance oversight.
22. neuronic ◴[] No.23275084[source]
They set "fast = true" as a global constant variable.
23. ronyfadel ◴[] No.23275276[source]
So many of the frameworks have shared code between macOS and iOS (e.g. MapKit, Foundation, Contacts etc..), so a perf fix in iOS pays dividends on macOS too.

Perf changes are too numerous to mention, I’d recommend watching last year’s WWDC keynote describing the iOS 12 v/s 13 perf advancements.

24. gubikmic ◴[] No.23275290{3}[source]
100% agree! If more people understood this, I hope this narrative would gain some traction and eventually reach Apple management.

To me, the idea that an OS is mostly finished is completely bananas. There's so much room for improvement and hardly any of that potential was tapped into in what's starting to feel like a decade.

And if Apple had invested into a successor for Cocoa, there might be a larger gap between native apps and (Electron) web apps, leading to some lock-in. Instead most new stuff is not native and for good reasons (and I do dislike the way they don't adhere to Mac conventions, but still).

I think ultimately the problem is Tim Cook. He's too attached to Apple's stock price. I think that's the one metric that he believes rates his performance. But inertia is a bitch. Like in politics, the effects might hit hard only once he's out and it could be too late to fix by then.

If I think about how much this impacts the economy overall (i.e. make millions of knowledge workers a little bit less efficient) then I can only hope that I'll see more sophisticated organizational structures in my lifetime that prevent such erosion.

replies(1): >>23279060 #
25. saagarjha ◴[] No.23275926{5}[source]
I would actually be quite happy if the engineers were forced to work on four-year-old MacBook Pros and develop against Display Zoomed iPhone 7 and the second generation Apple Watch, using the toolchain and software they push to their developers.
26. valuearb ◴[] No.23276536[source]
Apples Macintosh division is the most profitable PC company in the world and has been for at least a decade. In fact, Macintosh is likely more profitable than all other PC companies combined.

Less than 10% is no excuse.

replies(2): >>23278772 #>>23279645 #
27. fxtentacle ◴[] No.23276618{3}[source]
Agree. That's probably also one reason why more and more people want to use cross-platform app frameworks instead of developing for iOS natively. That way, you can do most of the dev work on Windows and Android, and you'll only need to use Mac & XCode for compiling the iOS binary.

And I'd wager that some iOS games are released without the developer ever touching XCode: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/UnityCloudBuildiOS.html

replies(1): >>23278183 #
28. saagarjha ◴[] No.23277415{5}[source]
Nothing special that can really be talked without internal context. You can get a hint at how they use their own tools though (which are available externally) if you pay careful attention to their public appearances and presentations.
29. plmu ◴[] No.23277432{3}[source]
I was thinking exactly this, 8 years ago. I moved from an imac + mbpro to linux only.

It took longer than expected. I even intended to buy put options, but someone I trust told me otherwise and to invest in equity instead, which I did, because I know that most buy decisions are not made rationally.

But it looks like the time has come now? On the other hand, I have been off by several years before. People are crazier than you think, especially when it comes to status and association with brands and self-confirmation of past decisions. They might well put up with Apples moves for a few more years.

30. yariik ◴[] No.23277478[source]
> I hope Apple currently has a team focused on macOS perf.

Apple doesn't give a fuck about macOS since 2015.

replies(1): >>23277585 #
31. yariik ◴[] No.23277538{4}[source]
> Apple uses the same tools you do.

No. A special directory can be created at the root of the file system called /AppleInternal. Then, if you work at Apple, you can put some special files there that do stuff. I've read somewhere that they are able to easily disable all of this privacy protection crap and other annoying stuff.

replies(1): >>23277968 #
32. cjsawyer ◴[] No.23277585[source]
I wonder what % of their users are developers only begrudgingly sticking around for iOS builds.
33. saagarjha ◴[] No.23277968{5}[source]
There's nothing really special about /AppleInternal, it's just a fairly normal directory that a couple of tools change in order to do things like offer more detailed diagnostics or the option to create a Radar. On a normal internal install there are some internal utilities, many of which are listed here: https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Category:Apple_Internal_A.... But their code is all Xcode projects and stuff, it's not like they're really using special tools for themselves except in certain cases. There are a couple of internal tools that possess entitlements to bypass security, but more often than not engineers just run with the security features disabled, which you can do yourself.
34. saagarjha ◴[] No.23278183{4}[source]
Signing and submitting apps to Apple is fairly annoying to do without Xcode.
replies(1): >>23280577 #
35. _underfl0w_ ◴[] No.23278772{3}[source]
Do you have a source for that claim?
36. indemnity ◴[] No.23279060{4}[source]
Tim Cook is Apple’s Ballmer, who is their Nadella?
37. pier25 ◴[] No.23279645{3}[source]
Like I said in another comment, is not about the revenue per se, but it's undeniable that the more popular iOS is the less Apple cares about the Mac.
38. fxtentacle ◴[] No.23280577{5}[source]
Unity has a service where they do it for you.
replies(1): >>23280765 #
39. saagarjha ◴[] No.23280765{6}[source]
Where you give them you key?
replies(1): >>23281223 #
40. fxtentacle ◴[] No.23281223{7}[source]
Yes. The procedure is explained in the link that I posted.
replies(1): >>23281237 #
41. saagarjha ◴[] No.23281237{8}[source]
I'm not sure I'd be entirely comfortable with that, to be honest.
42. codeisawesome ◴[] No.23281493[source]
I find it funny how people are downvoting your innocent comment pointing out a fact... out of anger and hate for the actual fact :D