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Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

(www.theverge.com)
669 points danso | 31 comments | 20 May 20 19:36 UTC | HN request time: 3.209s | source | bottom
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azinman2 ◴[21 May 20 19:49 UTC] No.23264065[source]▶
It’s amazing to me that so many are blaming Apple. Despite the fact that this site is all about new technology (so ironic!), uploading a photo from an iPhone isn’t exactly an edge case. They should have tested this, and apparently they did enough to send a tweet about it.. as if that’s enough. Clearly the college board dropped the ball in adequately informing people of their not-great workaround, instead of either specifying the accepted types directly in the web page’s input tag (as many have pointed out, and thus would have just worked correctly in the background), or by accepting and converting HEIC files themselves. At minimum, they should have put their suggested settings changes into the webpage itself before you started, and/or given a practice website to make sure it worked correctly.

College board owns this process, and it’s their job to make sure the setup works correctly for all students, including those who might not all be technically inclined.

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1. _snsh ◴[21 May 20 22:26 UTC] No.23266239[source]▶
This whole blame game is weird. Could the college board have handled this better or have a better upload mechanism? Sure. Could apple be more clear about the way they are storing and transferring photos? Sure, finder on my macbook actually does worse in handling .heic files than my windows 10 desktop unless I sync using photos.

But if I got this right the upload page stated the accepted file formats, why should they accept anything else? Sure, there are workarounds to handle uploading .heic files and automatic conversion works in certain cases but why should they care? The onus is on the user to ensure his submission is correct.

EDIT: I just tried .heic files on my Surface and had to install an MS store app to actually be able to open .heic files in full resolution.

https://www.microsoft.com/de-de/p/heif-bilderweiterungen/9pm...

EDIT2: I guess for me it boils down to, why should we coddle the applicants? Being able to understand the conditions of a test is not an unreasonable hardship. From that I gathered the website stated the accepted file formats. The uploader source suggests it did refuse certain file formats. There are technical solutions for this/these problem(s) and of course it would be nice if every system would be perfect. But it would also be nice if people would just work within the given constraints of a system.

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2. josho ◴[21 May 20 22:32 UTC] No.23266291[source]▶
If I may restate your position: "If a student uploads an image in the wrong format then it is acceptable for their entire test to be invalid and they can retake the entire exam."

Rather I think what is acceptable is HEIC is not accepted by the system, and if a student attempts to submit this format they receive an error saying that only JPG images are allowed.

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3. _snsh ◴[21 May 20 22:39 UTC] No.23266356[source]▶
> If I may restate your position: "If a student uploads an image in the wrong format then it is acceptable for their entire test to be invalid and they can retake the entire exam."

Yes, being able to understand the conditions should maybe be part of passing the test. Like I said, could the upload form have handled this better? Sure, although I have not read enough to understand if this was actually the upload form failing. The OP article claims "Spencer ... tried to convert it by renaming the HEIC file to PNG" which is not how you convert files. Maybe students learning that early on is not a bad thing?

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4. ummonk ◴[21 May 20 23:11 UTC] No.23266709[source]▶
Is this for comment real? Why should being tech savvy enough to jump through esoteric technical requirements be part of the test?
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5. _snsh ◴[21 May 20 23:17 UTC] No.23266753[source]▶
> esoteric technical requirements

Knowing a file type is an "esoteric technical requirement" ?

Yes, this comment is for real. I'm the head of IT for a university and we do online applications. We actually accept everything within a given size requirement (which people are unable to respect). I have a bunch of scripts that run over all applications in the end to put them in the right formats, to do OCR for the photos of a printed PDF form that has been filled out by hand in pencil, I even run a script to scrape annotations in PDF portfolios to scrape video links and pass them to youtube-dl, to ensure everything submitted gets picked up and is provided for evaluation.

This is why I think it would be nice if there was at least some responsibility on the part of the student.

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6. whatatita ◴[21 May 20 23:20 UTC] No.23266779{3}[source]▶
> Yes, being able to understand the conditions should maybe be part of passing the test.

I agree, when It's part of the subject in test. I don't see any reasonable cause for a student to have to know about file types to submit a test, if that test isn't about file types. I don't, for example, expect my doctor to know how to convert an image file because that's not his job.

> The OP article claims "Spencer ... tried to convert it by renaming the HEIC file to PNG" which is not how you convert files.

This highlights the level of knowledge the users of this application have in this area. The developers should have made it Painfully Clear that uploading directly from an iPhone isn't supported.

> Maybe students learning that early on is not a bad thing?

I agree they should learn this stuff, but don't think it should cost them their grade to do so.

Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't increase public understanding of these "slightly-technical" topics but I think we're a long way off and we can't expect that understanding just yet.

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7. whatatita ◴[21 May 20 23:21 UTC] No.23266788{3}[source]▶
> Knowing a file type is an "esoteric technical requirement" ?

Yes, when it is outside of the scope of the test. Unless they're testing the students on their knowledge of data storage, or similar, this is out of scope.

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8. _snsh ◴[21 May 20 23:27 UTC] No.23266857{4}[source]▶
Well, I disagree. I think "media competence" is more important than spelling or grammar and should be something expected of someone entering tertiary education.
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9. _snsh ◴[21 May 20 23:39 UTC] No.23266954{4}[source]▶
>I agree, when It's part of the subject in test. I don't see any reasonable cause for a student to have to know about file types to submit a test, if that test isn't about file types. I don't, for example, expect my doctor to know how to convert an image file because that's not his job.

Understanding the conditions of your test is part of the test. And your doctor doesn't have to know. His toolchain forces him to use certain programs and settings. If anything is set up wrong, your MRI image is just a worthless CD-R.

>This highlights the level of knowledge the users of this application have in this area. The developers should have made it Painfully Clear that uploading directly from an iPhone isn't supported.

They did. The supported file formats were clearly stated. Your issue here is with apple.

>I agree they should learn this stuff, but don't think it should cost them their grade to do so.

It doesn't. They can retake the test without punishment.

>Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't increase public understanding of these "slightly-technical" topics but I think we're a long way off and we can't expect that understanding just yet.

I disagree. The sooner people learn that renaming a file does not constitute conversion the better. When I was a student 15 years ago it was painfully clear you could not upload the 50MB .tif file your scanner spat out (silly websites at the time would just not take 50MB uploads most of the time...). I think this "slightly-technical" knowledge is something akin to correct spelling and grammar. It's fine if you disagree but, in my opinion (even if that was not the intent of the college board), this is not a bad lesson to teach.

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10. judge2020 ◴[21 May 20 23:47 UTC] No.23267022{5}[source]▶
You're still supporting that computer knowledge of what image file formats are and how to convert them should be part of the test. They can learn that later when their high school or college makes them take basic computer classes (hopefully), right now they just want to upload their image.

Either Apple or College Board is at fault here but it isn't the user.

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11. johnmaguire2013 ◴[21 May 20 23:48 UTC] No.23267026{5}[source]▶
But that's not what the test is about. It's not a category on the test.
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12. _snsh ◴[22 May 20 00:10 UTC] No.23267212{6}[source]▶
It's not an explicit category on the test and I never debated that. It might be an implicit requirement though.

Just how when you take your drivers test you should actually be able to operate your vehicle and know the laws around operating a motor vehicle aside from the explicit knowledge required from you in the test. But I understand how this might be a foreign concept for someone from the US.

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13. _snsh ◴[22 May 20 00:15 UTC] No.23267256{6}[source]▶
Yes, if you want to use a cell phone and/or a computer to complete your tasks you should have some basic knowledge about how it operates.

You can shift responsibility for that knowledge wherever you want but I would say that at the age between 16 and 19 (which google tells me is the average age for AP classes) I would expect that knowledge from someone applying for AP credit. And if someone didn't know what the accepted file types (as stated in the FAQ) meant at that age I'd expect them to figure it out for themselves.

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14. rsynnott ◴[22 May 20 00:15 UTC] No.23267257{5}[source]▶
Well, I suppose you’re welcome to have whatever bizarre opinions you like, but you should recognise that they’re pretty fringe.

No, this isn’t something the average person should need to know about.

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15. mmmmmk ◴[22 May 20 00:38 UTC] No.23267437{7}[source]▶
> But I understand how this might be a foreign concept for someone from the US.

What? In the US, knowing how to operate your vehicle and the laws around operating a motor vehicle IS the drivers test.

Your argument is not reasonable. Knowing the nuances of file formats is irrelevant to AP exams in US History, Calculus, Physics, etc. This is a failure of the administrators to make a proper test. The College Board specializes in tests- that's what they do, and they screwed up.

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16. thomasfedb ◴[22 May 20 00:54 UTC] No.23267565{7}[source]▶
I'm unsure that any of these students wanted to take their AP exams on their phone or computer. That this is a new problem suggests that this is something they've been newly forced to deal with.

It's certainly not a well engineered user experience. Passing a physics test should require physics knowledge, not knowledge of image formats. I think understanding of image formats is actually fairly obscure outside of technical circles.

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17. spideymans ◴[22 May 20 02:03 UTC] No.23267998{3}[source]▶
You’re vastly overestimating the competence of the average computer user. There’s a sizeable minority of people out there that don’t know what file extensions are, and even if they do know about them, they might not understand how they work (hence students attempting to convert file types by changing the extension).

File extensions are an implementation detail that, ideally, end users should never be forced to think about. There are graceful solutions to this problem; the College Board just didn’t do their due diligence.

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18. alistairSH ◴[22 May 20 02:38 UTC] No.23268174{7}[source]▶
By default, both Windows and MacOS hide file extensions. Smart phones almost universally hide them, if they give you a file explorer at all.

I suspect most teenagers (and that's what we're talking about here - 17, 18 years olds finishing secondary school) would have a notion that jpg and gif are image formats, and pdf and dcx are a document formats. I suspect few would know much beyond that, and most would not have had much reason to worry about converting between formats. [I work in higher ed tech, my gut feeling here is based on performing usability testing of other software]

Add in an unexpected file format glitch during the most important test of their life? Yeah, I'm not at all surprised that some/many screwed up.

This is 100% on College Board for failing to handle the situation gracefully. They didn't need to accept heif files. They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

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19. _snsh ◴[22 May 20 02:40 UTC] No.23268186{4}[source]▶
I'm not overestimating them. I see lots of college admission files, I know how inept most high school graduates are. I would like to see a higher base standard because frankly these issues are not going away for them and I don't see it as a tertiary education issue. 3 to 6 years later they will still have to submit resumes and portfolios and they will suck at it but the places they submit these to now longer offer any grace periods. File size to large? Fuck you. Wrong file type? Fuck you. Unsigned PDF? Fuck you. Missing a document? Fuck you. Missed a dead line? Fuck you.
20. _snsh ◴[22 May 20 02:56 UTC] No.23268260{8}[source]▶
> I suspect few would know much beyond that, and most would not have had much reason to worry about converting between formats.

Ok, first of, why should I (as an institution) care about the people unable to fulfil the conditions of my test? Maybe I only want people with a basic understanding of file formats because chances are they will have less issues with future applications?

> They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

They send out a message a week before the tests. The website only accepted the allowed formats. You could complain about them using Twitter to send out that message but you are not.

> They didn't need to accept heif files. They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

They did not accept .heic files (see the source from the upload js file). They did provide a list of supported files. Maybe the handholding should stop at some point?

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21. jessaustin ◴[22 May 20 03:05 UTC] No.23268306{9}[source]▶
No one rational feels sorry for universities.
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22. apricot ◴[22 May 20 03:20 UTC] No.23268367{3}[source]▶
Yes. Your average user knows nothing of file types. They know about pictures. Ask your average iPhone users whether their pictures are stored as JPEG, HEIC or TIFF files and you'll get a blank stare most of the time.
23. _snsh ◴[22 May 20 03:20 UTC] No.23268370{10}[source]▶
No one rational makes absolute comments on the internet.

Maybe university IT departments are staffed by people. Maybe even at the college board it's just some IT guys trying to keep a shitty platform working. Maybe they did the best they could working within their constraints and they expected the same from students who have a vested interest in getting their results submitted. Maybe this is just much ado about nothing.

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24. gfxgirl ◴[22 May 20 04:03 UTC] No.23268527[source]▶
Ever see a student get scolded for not using a #2 pencil? Can't use a pen. Can't use a marker. Can't use a #9 pencil. Must be a a #2 pencil.

Ever fill out a government form that must be done in non erasable black or blue ink. A pencil is unacceptable. A red pen, green pen, purple pen is unacceptable. An erasable pen is also unacceptable.

Not saying users should have to know what a .JPG from an .HEIC but just saying there is plenty of precedent of technical requirements for things in real life. I've had forms rejected at the immigration office for using the wrong type of pen an I've been in classes where students didn't have the correct type of pencil and caused issues.

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25. dreamcompiler ◴[22 May 20 04:52 UTC] No.23268746[source]▶
I'm pretty damn technical and I never heard of HEIC before today. Maybe I would have if I had an Iphone, but in general if I take a photo with my phone I assume it writes a JPEG to the file system somewhere. If that's not the case, the software -- not the students -- should have been able to handle the issue. Computers are the servants of people; not the other way around.
26. jiqiren ◴[22 May 20 05:33 UTC] No.23268944{3}[source]▶
ok but what if you're told this 'technical requirement' in a tweet while taking the test? and you don't even use twitter?
27. dang ◴[22 May 20 06:13 UTC] No.23269141{9}[source]▶
Please don't cross into personal attack, regardless how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. It just makes the thread even worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

28. CathedralBorrow ◴[22 May 20 12:22 UTC] No.23271308{9}[source]▶
> Ok, first of, why should I (as an institution) care about the people unable to fulfil the conditions of my test?

Maybe you (as an institution) care about all your students?

29. thomasfedb ◴[22 May 20 13:19 UTC] No.23271700{11}[source]▶
I don't see why you'd assume that the students did anything less than their best.
30. alistairSH ◴[22 May 20 13:48 UTC] No.23272019{9}[source]▶
It's not the institution giving the test. It's a for-profit corporation that has a de facto monopoly on standardized testing in the US. It's also a company who has been slow to modernize their test (both content, scoring, and process) and has slowly lost the faith of many colleges/unis. And the students are paying for the "privilege" because their test is the gateway to higher ed.

The at-home test format is new. It's usually given in a test center (either private or at the secondary school) with a proctor. Students usually prep for years for this exam, but all that prep would be for the on-site proctored exam. This was new for everybody, and appears to be poorly executed by the company that profits handsomely from these exams.

Based on the article linked, the message went out the day of the exam, after some students were already mid-test. That's not helpful.

31. ummonk ◴[22 May 20 18:18 UTC] No.23275211{3}[source]▶
#2 pencils are standard student equipment. As are iPhones.

And government forms also come with pens to fill them out.