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847 points kick | 13 comments | 20 Nov 19 15:44 UTC | HN request time: 0.638s | source | bottom
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ilamont ◴[20 Nov 19 16:36 UTC] No.21585386[source]▶
Xi's in a trap. The nationalist fervor that the CCP has whipped up for decades, coupled with the demonization of the HK protestors by Chinese media and Xi's 'no compromise' stance, makes it impossible for him to lighten up -- and the protests to de-escalate -- without him seeming weak. The HK protestors/population at this point are so angry and the radical wing so large, that they won't willingly de-escalate. Even if Lam leaves the demonstrations will continue. This sets up the stage for atrocities and more international condemnation.

Already on the international front, China is in trouble. The pro-China KMT party in Taiwan may suffer greatly in the next election because of what's going on in HK now (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3037040/tai...), making China's aggressive demands for forced unification even more unlikely in the medium term. This week, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed a HK rights bill (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-usa/us-...) that, if it becomes law, will put China through an annual review, which will further erode the Sino-U.S. relationship for years to come. There have been calls for a boycott of the 2022 Olympics in Beijing which seems fringey now, but won't be if China sends in the troops.

There's also the internal question. Ordinary people in China are getting censored news, but some of the raw information about what's going on is getting through via social media. What does this mean for sentiment in Cantonese speaking areas of southern China, or for areas of China where provincial officials are resented for unjust or unfair treatment of citizens?

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1. Aperocky ◴[20 Nov 19 18:09 UTC] No.21586559[source]▶
Both the west and China omit information when reporting about HK. China highlights protester violence, the west talk about police. The only difference is that west is doing it voluntarily.

If you step back and think about it, if this protest were to happen in the US, with subways burned, shops destroyed, road blocked, for 6 months. What is going to happen? Compare this hypothetical scenario with what happened in Hong Kong.

Where’s the gap? In 2019 we’ve been accustomed to export thinking to other people and import outrage from the cheapest source. And it doesn’t take a dictatorial government to push a narrative.

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2. zzzcpan ◴[20 Nov 19 18:21 UTC] No.21586700[source]▶
> China highlights protester violence, the west talk about police. The only difference is that west is doing it voluntarily.

Both in the US and in China people work in media voluntarily. In neither case they have freedom to publish anything they want, they have to push specific narratives coming from the top. In China narratives come directly from the government, in the US indirectly through the system of "manufacturing consent".

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3. perennate ◴[20 Nov 19 19:08 UTC] No.21587283[source]▶
In the US I can read any English source, both ones from China and ones from US/UK media. I read that the CCP imprisoned approximately one million Uighurs in concentration camps in Xinjiang, where they are being held indefinitely without due process, and there are reports of physical torture (waterboarding and tiger chair), rape, and occasional killings. I also read from CCP's point of view that this started because there were some terrorist knife attacks in 2014. So I can get both sides' point of views. But after reading both sides, my conclusion is that even if 10,000 people are guilty it does not justify a Holocaust-scale genocide of one million Uighurs, where the overwhelming majority are innocent and did not participate or condone the terrorists. There is no difference between the logic of those perpetrating the genocide in Xinjiang and the logic of Hitler during WWII.
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4. perennate ◴[20 Nov 19 19:14 UTC] No.21587350[source]▶
China Daily has an office in NYC [1], and publishes a US edition of their newspaper. This is a newspaper directly owned by the CCP. And you can pick up a copy of the regular China Daily in many cities. Is the uncensored New York Times available in China? I think not. Trying to equate the two is ridiculous. No one is going to buy your argument that "manufacturing consent" means that the level of freedom of speech is the same in the US and China. It's just completely wrong.

[1] http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/2011-04/13/content_12319455.htm

When the police come in and arrest everyone working for the China Daily in NYC and send them to jail and physically torture them like the CCP did to Simon Cheng or harvest their organs like the CCP did to Falun Gong followers, then you can make your argument. And many people in the US will fight just as hard for the rights of China Daily US Edition as they fight for freedom of speech and universal suffrage in Hong Kong.

5. Aperocky ◴[20 Nov 19 19:31 UTC] No.21587524[source]▶
You’re right and entirely sideway to my point, which is that narrative pushing are not just from one side alone.
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6. perennate ◴[20 Nov 19 19:41 UTC] No.21587633{3}[source]▶
Let's consider a hypothetical scenario similar to the one you put forward then. Suppose the US government conducts mass imprisonment of a certain population in concentration camps, like CCP is doing to Uighurs in Xinjiang.

Well, it's not hypothetical, we already did it during WWII to Americans of Japanese ethnicity. And newspapers across the US spoke up against this atrocity [1]. Contrast that with China where the newspapers are forced to push the government's narrative, and invariably focus on the terrorism in 2014 that sparked the CCP's disproportional response rather than the barbaric violence perpetrated by the CCP.

The US government has formally apologized for the atrocities in the concentration camps where Japanese-Americans were held, and paid reparations ($42K per camp survivor in current USD). We vowed never to do something so horrible again. But in 2019 China is still playing with mass forced incarceration, and they even have the gall to call it a model for combating violence that other countries should follow. The CCP has replaced the Japanese empire in abusing their own population (but I think some in China are racist and view Uighurs as not part of the Chinese people, just like how Nazi Germany viewed the Jewish people, and how some in US during WW2 viewed Japanese-Americans).

[1] https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/11/protests-against-in...

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7. hkmaxpro ◴[20 Nov 19 20:19 UTC] No.21588052[source]▶
> If you step back and think about it, if this protest were to happen in the US, with subways burned, shops destroyed, road blocked, for 6 months. What is going to happen? Compare this hypothetical scenario with what happened in Hong Kong.

If the same protests happened in the US, with a quarter of the population marching peacefully on June 16 (as it did in Hong Kong), the government has to immediately respond to its people’s demands, for otherwise the current government will lose in landslide in the next election. And all the subway burning, shops destruction, etc will be avoided — these events happened at least three months into Hong Kong protests in September, long after the mega march on June 16.

Thank you for pointing out Hong Kong has no genuine democracy, which is directly related to one of the five key demands.

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8. DarthGhandi ◴[20 Nov 19 23:49 UTC] No.21589920{4}[source]▶
> Suppose the US government conducts mass imprisonment of a certain population

I'd argue that's not hypothetical at all, even with Xinjiang the US has by far the highest rate of imprisonment on the planet both of adults and children.

Most are black. Vast majority are not violent crimes.

It's entirely out of step with the rest of the developed world.

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9. tw04 ◴[21 Nov 19 04:59 UTC] No.21591589{5}[source]▶
Ah, yes. Because someone convicted of a crime going to jail is the same thing as someone being sent to a camp due to their religion. Equating the issues in the US justice system to concentration camps is ridiculous.
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10. flukus ◴[21 Nov 19 05:30 UTC] No.21591686[source]▶
> If you step back and think about it, if this protest were to happen in the US, with subways burned, shops destroyed, road blocked, for 6 months. What is going to happen? Compare this hypothetical scenario with what happened in Hong Kong.

It's not hypocritical because the US has democratic avenues and Hong Kong (and China) doesn't, disruption is their only option.

When Hong Kong has universal free and fare elections I'll think about joining your condemnation.

11. imtringued ◴[21 Nov 19 12:17 UTC] No.21593359{6}[source]▶
The definition of "crime" in the USA was carefully chosen to primarily target undesirable races.
12. DarthGhandi ◴[23 Nov 19 04:34 UTC] No.21612487{6}[source]▶
Ah yes, my mistake, you only lock up convicted criminals, let's review that claim for a moment. Here's a visual:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/uKLej0KwcfGN583uqvyfQ...

Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics

I've noticed a massive apathy amongst Chinese towards Xinjiang, the vast majority don't care and think they deserve it. Perhaps you have a lot more in common than you think.

Both countries have horrendous records and many from there feel not the slightest bit of shame about it.

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13. dailiangren ◴[01 Dec 19 16:49 UTC] No.21676299{7}[source]▶
I grew up in Jiangsu province of China. I heard some very nice stories about people in Xinjiang from my neighbours who had worked in Xinjiang for some time. I also heard some very bad stories about certain group of people from Xinjiang. It's hard to agree with you that 'a massive apathy amongst Chinese towards Xinjiang' --- as an ordinary Chinese, I want a peaceful country, and no terrorists, and I love diversity.