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2525 points hownottowrite | 67 comments | | HN request time: 1.168s | source | bottom
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diveanon ◴[] No.21190558[source]
Can we please start a cultural movement that forces large corporations to choose between appeasing Chinese censors and looking like fools to the rest of the west or getting banned in China.

Really seems like a win win scenario.

replies(8): >>21190604 #>>21190677 #>>21190678 #>>21190695 #>>21190877 #>>21191194 #>>21192899 #>>21194978 #
1. nabla9 ◴[] No.21190677[source]
How about Chinese owners?

Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-...

AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese.

Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese.

Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.

replies(12): >>21190726 #>>21190893 #>>21190894 #>>21190916 #>>21190992 #>>21191011 #>>21191117 #>>21191545 #>>21191748 #>>21191916 #>>21192238 #>>21192470 #
2. diveanon ◴[] No.21190726[source]
Make them choose between the two markets.

I'm tired of the idea that the Western and Chinese markets can both be appeased the middle of the road morality.

What is happening in HK right now is wrong, and the west has fought wars over this very issue.

replies(4): >>21190762 #>>21190782 #>>21190797 #>>21191335 #
3. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.21190762[source]
> and the west has fought wars over this very issue

Which ones?

Also, China has nukes, we probably don't want to see that war starting. I don't think there's a good military option available.

replies(2): >>21190815 #>>21190983 #
4. hyperdunc ◴[] No.21190782[source]
It's the authoritarian Chinese government insisting on censorship. Not so much the Chinese market.
replies(3): >>21190854 #>>21190906 #>>21191025 #
5. nabla9 ◴[] No.21190797[source]
Cultural movement would require people who are not themselves in the middle ground in the road to morality.

It's hard to imagine people stopping using Uber, Lyft, Twitter, Snapchat, Fox News just because Saudis are heavily invested.

replies(1): >>21190892 #
6. atroche ◴[] No.21190815{3}[source]
Do they have the capacity to hit targets in the continental US without winning naval supremacy?
replies(5): >>21190832 #>>21190833 #>>21190888 #>>21190903 #>>21190909 #
7. nabla9 ◴[] No.21190833{4}[source]
Yes.
8. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.21190832{4}[source]
I don't think the navy can do anything about ICBMs, but even if, they can start by nuking the US navy.
replies(2): >>21191066 #>>21191140 #
9. ianleeclark ◴[] No.21190854{3}[source]
Furthermore, the western market is more than happy to comply with the censorship.
10. amdavidson ◴[] No.21190888{4}[source]
Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-41
11. ameen ◴[] No.21190892{3}[source]
Saudis barely have any influence, if anything - the opposite is true, any hint of editorial intervention by any middle eastern/african nation and the west is up in arms about journalistic integrity but chinese have been exerting their power for quite sometime.

It's interesting to watch this unfold for someone who isn't entrenched in any of these spheres.

12. Beltiras ◴[] No.21190893[source]
This is what happens when you fund your deficit spending with foreign investors for too long.
replies(1): >>21190978 #
13. SmallDeadGuy ◴[] No.21190894[source]
Fortnite is Epic Games, not Bluehole.
14. atroche ◴[] No.21190903{4}[source]
I probably should’ve done a quick search instead of asking:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-para...

15. ameen ◴[] No.21190906{3}[source]
Chinese propaganda is well-spread. I had a Chinese roommate, well educated to boot - PhD in Econ from Columbia, and I could feel the reverence he had for Mao even though his ancestors were landlords.
replies(5): >>21191062 #>>21191108 #>>21191319 #>>21191367 #>>21191546 #
16. baq ◴[] No.21190909{4}[source]
They can launch people into orbit and safely bring them back. Hitting a ground target with an ICBM is about the same difficulty.
17. xenocratus ◴[] No.21190916[source]
Matt Stoller has been doing some coverage on just how much control China has built in Western economies. Quite scary.

https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/how-joe-biden-empowered-c...

replies(1): >>21191704 #
18. netsharc ◴[] No.21190978[source]
That's a too simplistic conclusion based on myth... https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china...

And these are private companies bought by private investors (ok one could argue it's Chinese government money..), what does that have to do with government deficit?

replies(1): >>21191007 #
19. mc32 ◴[] No.21190983{3}[source]
They aren’t saying we should start a war. They are saying we’ve gone to war to defend those principles but now we put up much less resistance, such as denouncements, sanctions, etc., lots of things short of war that we’ve done with the USSR and Russia.
replies(1): >>21191173 #
20. goatinaboat ◴[] No.21190992[source]
How about Chinese owners?

That’s a tricky one. The “woke” don’t care about all the Saudi money in Uber and WeWork despite that regimes hideous treatment of gays, women, dissidents and so on.

replies(3): >>21191822 #>>21192171 #>>21195285 #
21. Beltiras ◴[] No.21191007{3}[source]
You think this sort of investment is any different than investment in general? Investors will pick a bucket of investments with differing risk pools like tbills, stocks, bonds etc.
22. jswizzy ◴[] No.21191011[source]
If you think that is scary look at who owns our defense industries now that the pre Clinton era small contractors were forced to merge.
23. esailija ◴[] No.21191025{3}[source]
authoritarian government is a tautology
replies(1): >>21191085 #
24. hyperdunc ◴[] No.21191062{4}[source]
I've traveled throughout eastern China and I've encountered this indoctrination many times when talking to otherwise reasonable people.

But despite the widespread nationalist zealotry, most ordinary folk still seem to enjoy bootlegging Western media choc full of Western morality. They're not trying to ban it.

Though of course China does have its very own PC police that are encouraged by the government.

25. arethuza ◴[] No.21191066{5}[source]
The US Navy does appear to have an ABM capability on some of its ships:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defens...

replies(2): >>21191156 #>>21191569 #
26. hyperdunc ◴[] No.21191085{4}[source]
Different forms and examples of government exhibit relatively different levels of authoritarianism. Communist governments are invariably more authoritarian than liberal democracies.
replies(1): >>21191192 #
27. lucian1900 ◴[] No.21191108{4}[source]
He realises that being a landlord is immoral. Nothing wrong with that.

Read Mao's "On Contradiction".

28. sigil ◴[] No.21191117[source]
> AMC is fully owned by Chinese.

AMC was majority-owned by China’s Dalian Wanda, but they scaled back from 60% to 38% about a year ago.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amc-dalian-wanda-silver-l...

29. merpnderp ◴[] No.21191140{5}[source]
They can't nuke the subs, who's primary purpose is to ensure retaliation, which hopefully the fear of keeps countries from launching nukes.
30. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.21191156{6}[source]
Good to know. Now the question is, can the newest AEGIS deal with China's newest hypersonic ICBMs. It's a question I very much don't want to see answered through actual test.
31. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.21191173{4}[source]
I read them as implying it, though even if they aren't, in previous HK threads I've seen comments that were, as if open war between two ICBM-equipped nations was something that wouldn't have disastrous consequences for every single one of us.

I also would love to know which wars we (the US, or the Western world) have gone to over those principles (versus e.g. "over oil"), because I can't think of any.

replies(3): >>21191267 #>>21192037 #>>21195240 #
32. esailija ◴[] No.21191192{5}[source]
If that's true then your comment still doesn't make sense. As there cannot be non-authoritarian government, calling a government authoritarian makes objectively no sense and is just meant to provoke emotions obviously.
replies(1): >>21191988 #
33. mc32 ◴[] No.21191267{5}[source]
We’re not (at least I’m not) saying go to war. I’m saying take the same actions we do against Russia and Venezuela for example.
replies(1): >>21191737 #
34. yters ◴[] No.21191319{4}[source]
Similar experience. He said Mao had to make hard choices as a leader to propel his country forward. I asked him why India didn't have to starve millions to do the same thing.
replies(1): >>21191411 #
35. ◴[] No.21191335[source]
36. whoevercares ◴[] No.21191367{4}[source]
Mao’s picture has been greatly undermined after 2000s as even the CCP history book said he made terrible mistakes and there were several wide spread videos criticizing Mao. His time has been long gone and only a little respect passed to the next gen mainly from grandparents.

It’ll be interesting if you could talk with him regarding his position for the government, recent issues and long term policy. My bet is he’ll be super supportive and you might be surprised that “greater good” trade off is well accepted

37. whoevercares ◴[] No.21191411{5}[source]
After 1949, Mao barely did anything right and I’m surprised if any Chinese born after 90s would still defend him. But I doubt India is such a great example, we probably all have seen photos of the Gange
replies(1): >>21191581 #
38. cryptica ◴[] No.21191545[source]
The solution is very simple. The government should take possession of any company that grows beyond a maximum size and distribute the shares to the public.
replies(1): >>21191616 #
39. yourbandsucks ◴[] No.21191546{4}[source]
Lots of Americans express admiration for our founders and institutions too, though. Flags and conspicuous patriotism are everywhere in our country.

It's possible that that's just normalized for you but it seems jarring when you see someone revering a 'commie'. The programming runs deep on all sides.

40. vonmoltke ◴[] No.21191569{6}[source]
As noted in that article, the system is ineffective (officially, at least) against ICBMs. It only works against ballistic missiles that don't leave the atmosphere.
41. BubRoss ◴[] No.21191581{6}[source]
Are you comparing a polluted river to the deaths of millions?
replies(1): >>21191613 #
42. whoevercares ◴[] No.21191613{7}[source]
Polluted by dead bodies...
replies(2): >>21191741 #>>21194706 #
43. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.21191616[source]
Best the "commies" by being more communist than they are, love it.
replies(1): >>21192161 #
44. megous ◴[] No.21191704[source]
It's called trade. US americans send $ to China for cheap goods and manufacturing, Now, Chinese have $ to spend in the US.

Not really scary. It's better for superpowers to have intertwined economies, rather than be isolated. Less incentives for conquest and war.

replies(2): >>21191762 #>>21193739 #
45. luckylion ◴[] No.21191737{6}[source]
For very different reasons. Venezuela is "communists in our backyard" and Russia isn't about human rights, but about global hegemony, human rights is just the big argument.

If there was an actual point in "it's about human rights", the US would come down on Turkey like an anvil on a cartoon character in old animated movies. Instead, the US appears to support Turkey's new expansive invasion of Syria that goes hand in hand with their genocidal desires to annihilate the Kurds. It's never about human rights on the international stage, it's about power.

replies(2): >>21191899 #>>21192644 #
46. yters ◴[] No.21191741{8}[source]
From flooding or what? Seems like there is a difference...
47. ddtaylor ◴[] No.21191748[source]
Tencent also owns a sizable amount of GGG which operates Path of Exile.
48. delfinom ◴[] No.21191762{3}[source]
Not really. One super power now has majority ownership of the other. They can now conquest with little business disruption ;)
replies(1): >>21192029 #
49. KaiserPro ◴[] No.21191822[source]
not to mention actual slavery

http://www.rhsansfrontieres.org/en/183-to-see/287-forced-lab...

50. mc32 ◴[] No.21191899{7}[source]
Its true human rights is rarely the true or stated reason, and it needn’t be here either.

It could be about hegemony and influence. the NBA and Hollywood having to cater and cave in to official Chinese positions. I think it’d be different than say hoi polloi (public opinion) in China dictating what Hollywood does. One is freedom of speech and opinion the other is government coercion and control.

51. avh02 ◴[] No.21191916[source]
And in turn, ~30% of tencent is owned by prosus/naspers (dutch/south african listed). So you can pressure "close to home" in a way.
52. hyperdunc ◴[] No.21191988{6}[source]
All government is authoritarian but not to an equivalent extent. From a liberal point of view the current Chinese government is relatively authoritarian, as evidenced by many things including recent examples of censorship.
53. thieving_magpie ◴[] No.21192029{4}[source]
> One super power now has majority ownership of the other.

A few companies and minority ownership stakes does not mean any super power owns the majority of another super power. That's a wide gulf.

54. delecti ◴[] No.21192037{5}[source]
There are a handful of wars in the 20th century that you can argue the US participated in because of principles (communism bad).
55. _bxg1 ◴[] No.21192161{3}[source]
Today's China is communist in name only. They literally arrested the president of Peking University's Marxist society on ideological grounds: https://news.yahoo.com/china-arrests-marxist-student-leader-...
56. ViViDboarder ◴[] No.21192171[source]
To be fair, those companies are gushing money so bad that using them is only going to cause more losses for Saudi investors.
57. kabacha ◴[] No.21192238[source]
Doesn't Tencent sort of have reputation of going _against_ chinese government? Also AFAIK big chunk of it is owned by western investment firms etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naspers#Tencent_investment
58. scrollaway ◴[] No.21192470[source]
Tencent isn't the problem with Blizzard.

Hearthstone is massive in China. Hearthstone has far more players than all other regions combined. The chinese market is what keeps the game alive.

That is the problem here.

59. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.21192644{7}[source]
Venezuela is also in top 10 of net oil exporters, which I do believe is the reason other nations in general, and US in particular, care about it at all.
60. papreclip ◴[] No.21193739{3}[source]
This is conquest. The chinese are gradually accumulating wealth and control in our country. Their laws prohibit foreigners from doing the same in their country.

I can have a chinese landlord gouging me for west coast rent but can never be a landlord in china.

replies(2): >>21194360 #>>21198141 #
61. isthisreality ◴[] No.21194360{4}[source]
I find it suspicious that silent conquest of this kind is not spoken about more in politics. It's a very real threat to US sovereignty, especially with superpowers like China and Israel.
replies(1): >>21195202 #
62. BubRoss ◴[] No.21194706{8}[source]
You do realize that floating a family member's body down the Ganges is considered a sacred ritual and that what you just said has nothing to do with mass deaths due to negligence right?
replies(1): >>21198064 #
63. diveanon ◴[] No.21195202{5}[source]
It is spoken of, but it is often dismissed as protectionism.

I don't agree with Trump on pretty much anything except for his stance on Chinese trade.

There is an imbalance that needs to be addressed that is being completely ignored by the progressive candidates.

Not saying it will make me vote for the guy in 2020, but it will be a key issue for many others.

64. diveanon ◴[] No.21195240{5}[source]
There are key founding principles for any liberal democracy.

China and what it stands for is the antithesis of those principles.

Our unwillingness to act on what our ancestors viewed as infringements on basic human rights will be the end of the free world.

65. diveanon ◴[] No.21195285[source]
Do uber and wework monitor the conversations of their customers to see if they criticize Islam?

Have uber or wework fired employees for being gay or women?

66. whoevercares ◴[] No.21198064{9}[source]
I admit I didn’t know about the ritual part, but just a little google show me this:

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unnao_dead_bodies_row

And many sources mention they did this just because they can’t afford proper cremation.

Another funny picture is Train with many people attached outside, not sure if that’s another convention or custom :)

67. megous ◴[] No.21198141{4}[source]
You can't really exploit cheap labor and buy huge amount of cheap stuff and then expect those people to not buy anything back from you. And yeah, they'll not be buying the same kind of crap from you that they're manufacturing and selling to you. So they buy land, companies, anything comparatively valuable to them that they can afford.

You can prevent foreigners from buying/owning land/property in US, but that will just lower the value of US dollars held by foreigners significantly and your currency will crash in value.

The foreigners already hold too much US dollars. The ship has sailed. You'll pay either way for enjoying the fruits of cheap foreign labor in the past. It's either devaulation of your currency, or accepting that foreigners will get a piece of US land.