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628 points nodea2345 | 45 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
1. dx87 ◴[] No.21124948[source]
Not to defend what the police have been doing overall during this protest, but in this specific incident you can see the protestors beating a police officer on the ground, and the protestor who got shot was swinging a metal pipe at the police officer that shot him.
replies(5): >>21125074 #>>21125241 #>>21125735 #>>21125783 #>>21125894 #
2. sigzero ◴[] No.21125074[source]
Context is everything.
3. nodea2345 ◴[] No.21125241[source]
Full context is police officers often beat protests during arresting. Sometimes they just fight each other. Anyway, I think the officer have better choices than attempting to kill the kid(shot in chest is obvious willing to kill).
replies(1): >>21125713 #
4. LandR ◴[] No.21125713[source]
I think anytime you shoot a gun at one someone you are shooting to kill, shoot to maim feels like it would be practically impossible outside of movies.

But I might be wrong, I've never shot a gun.

replies(3): >>21125803 #>>21126069 #>>21126230 #
5. mlevental ◴[] No.21125735[source]
https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dbqsfl/video_show...

shows cop ran into the crowd and had a clear exit path (not necessary to shoot to remain safe)

replies(1): >>21126019 #
6. vnchr ◴[] No.21125783[source]
The police are allowed to shoot someone in the leg. Lethal force is not the only option with a firearm.
replies(6): >>21125861 #>>21125886 #>>21125891 #>>21126034 #>>21126437 #>>21131855 #
7. geggam ◴[] No.21125803{3}[source]
This concept you can shoot to maim is silly. Hitting a man is hard if you practice shooting. In a chaotic situation with adrenaline its even harder.

Shooting to hit is all you can do.

replies(1): >>21126270 #
8. tyingq ◴[] No.21125861[source]
Curious if there's any place where this is common. I assumed everyone trains center mass. Also, there's a femoral artery in your leg... you'll be just as dead if that gets hit.
9. kube-system ◴[] No.21125886[source]
Any use of a firearm is potentially lethal and should be treated as such. The precision necessary for the scenario you are proposing is not physiologically possible during an active conflict.
10. ptero ◴[] No.21125891[source]
Different police units are trained for different rules. Somewhere it is a verbal warning, warning shot, shot in the leg, shot to kill. Sometimes it is just a verbal warning and a shot to kill. Not defending the police in this specific case (I do not know the details), but blaming an officer for following the sequence he has been trained for is misplacing the blame. My 2c.
replies(1): >>21125959 #
11. woutr_be ◴[] No.21125894[source]
I've been fairly critical of protestors before, but in this instance, you can see the police going in for a fight, already heavily outnumbered. I'm not sure what they expected to happen, but the officer drew his gun almost instantly and shot a high school kid at point blank range.

There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors, and as soon as they realized protestors weren't having any of it, they drew their guns and shot in the air. There's a difference between an officers' life being in danger, and the officer stupidly putting his life in danger.

replies(3): >>21126125 #>>21126613 #>>21136384 #
12. radmarshallb ◴[] No.21125959{3}[source]
I highly doubt any officers anywhere are trained to fire a warning shot, much less a precise disabling shot in the leg. When you fire your weapon, it is with the intent to kill.
13. dx87 ◴[] No.21126019[source]
It looks to me like he ran in to try and protect the police officer that was surrounded on the ground, and didn't fire until he was attacked. I don't know the context around this specific event, but it doesn't look like the "police officer runs in and shoots child protestor" narrative that is being pushed on reddit.
14. MichaelApproved ◴[] No.21126034[source]
Citation needed.

Which police force trains their officers to shoot people in the leg?

My understanding is that, if you need to shoot someone, there’s an immediate threat. You shoot for the largest target, so you won’t miss and so you do the most damage.

If you aim for the leg, you’re likely to miss. Even if you hit the leg, there’s a femoral artery in there. If you hit that person will bleed out in just a few minutes.

replies(1): >>21126302 #
15. NoInputSignal ◴[] No.21126069{3}[source]
I'm not taking a side on this specific situation, but shooting at a limb in a high stress, crowded situation would not be a wise shot. You would likely miss--and hitting someone that was not your target would not be good.

Another comment mentions training for center of mass, and I would assume that's what they do.

Let's say 80% of your shots constitute a "tight grouping", 20% being somewhere other than where you were aiming. Aiming for the middle of the body would likely mean you have a very high success rate of hitting your target individual. Aiming for the shoulder/leg/arm (each one harder than the last to hit) you are looking at a very low success rate of hitting your target. If you choose to use your weapon, I would hope you are confident you will hit your target and only your target.

16. dmix ◴[] No.21126125[source]
> There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors

And protestors obviously looking to fight police. They swarmed the other officers partner who was being beaten on the ground and he was next.

I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there.

There's a very good argument for having police on the streets when there's protestors running around throwing petrol bombs and swinging metal pipes. This is basic civil society 101 stuff. I'm not convinced the solution to China's totalitarianism is random street violence and property destruction by teenagers.

replies(4): >>21126363 #>>21126460 #>>21126623 #>>21130944 #
17. samastur ◴[] No.21126230{3}[source]
And yet somehow Slovenian police manages to do just that (shoot to maim, usually leg), on very rare occasions when it has to use a gun and warning shot didn't suffice.
18. jacobush ◴[] No.21126270{4}[source]
The police in Sweden is trained to shoot to maim, but only in somewhat controlled situations, such as someone wielding a knife approaching officers from a distance. First warn verbally, then fire a warning shot, then fire at the legs.

When there is no margin left, fire to stop. (Which means in practice, often death.)

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befog...

replies(3): >>21126311 #>>21126390 #>>21126428 #
19. jacobush ◴[] No.21126302{3}[source]
The Swedish police. They are allowed to shoot to kill, but in some circumstances (likely not a riot, but it's a case by case judgement) are instructed to aim for the legs.
replies(1): >>21126636 #
20. geggam ◴[] No.21126311{5}[source]
The only way this sort of training would work IMO would be with sociopaths or psychopaths who dont have the huge adrenaline jump from emotional attachment to other humans.
replies(1): >>21136638 #
21. heavyset_go ◴[] No.21126363{3}[source]
> I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there.

When you're a public servant, this should be expected of you. Especially when the crime you're trying to brutalize members of the public for is "exercising freedom of expression"

replies(1): >>21133518 #
22. LandR ◴[] No.21126390{5}[source]
THis might be a stupid question, but where are Warning shots fired?

Are they fired close to the target, but far enough away to miss? Can this only be done if there is no one behind the target, are they shot into the sky? If so is their no danger of bullets hitting people falling back down? Or do they lose enough speed on the downward arc to be safe? Or is the chance of a warning shot hitting someone innocent so staggering low that it isn't worth worrying about?

replies(1): >>21126801 #
23. JoeAltmaier ◴[] No.21126428{5}[source]
The distance has to be very great - 21 feet is often quoted as the minimum distance where a gun wins over a knife. And many barrooms are less than that.

So in theory its a kind idea. But hardly ever significant in practice?

replies(2): >>21126545 #>>21127420 #
24. goles ◴[] No.21126437[source]
In defensive shootings the objective is to stop the immediate threat which is best accomplished by shooting center mass and damaging the vital organs. Shooting to maim will give the attacker the opportunity to disable you or take the weapon from you which will likely result in your death.
25. woutr_be ◴[] No.21126460{3}[source]
> And protestors obviously looking to fight police. They swarmed the other officers partner who was being beaten on the ground and he was next.

While true, protestors can't just resort to drawing their guns and firing warning shots. Police have a civil duty to uphold the law and be professional, not to go out fighting protestors and then flash their guns to scare them away when they're losing.

26. geggam ◴[] No.21126545{6}[source]
I would argue a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge with double / triple aught buck would reduce that down to a few feet.

Problem would be how you train people to hold their cool

replies(1): >>21126574 #
27. JoeAltmaier ◴[] No.21126574{7}[source]
That cavalier attitude is what gets officers killed in bar fights. It takes a couple seconds to cross 21 feet. About what it takes to recognize the danger and raise the weapon.
replies(1): >>21126695 #
28. bhy ◴[] No.21126613[source]
Today is China's National Day. That probably heat up the conflict.
29. camgunz ◴[] No.21126623{3}[source]
The protests started out peacefully and stayed peaceful for months, even in the face of state-sponsored gang violence (Yuen Long Station), false arrests, and police brutality. All of these things have rightfully angered the citizens of HK. They have every right to protest their government, especially the CCP, one of the most egregious violators of human rights in the modern era.

They are not just teenagers engaging in random street violence and property destruction. There are people from 12-80 on the street. Professionals, part-timers, students, retirees, everyone. Over a million people turned out last August in one of the largest protest marches in human history.

All the escalation is the result of CCP/HK not providing a political solution. They just send riot police to peaceful protests every weekend, and more violence occurs.

Admittedly it's hard to stay on top of all this stuff. The CCP's propaganda machine is working overtime and here in the West we're not doing a great job sounding the alarm in the press (in fairness, we have our own problems). But it's a serious protest movement fighting as honorably as it can for democracy and human rights, with global, fundamental consequences. We should be backing them 100%.

30. MS90 ◴[] No.21126636{4}[source]
This is strange to me. Firstly, because hitting a target with a pistol under high stress can be extremely difficult and legs are smaller than torso, and secondly, because "aiming for the legs" doesn't guarantee that it won't be lethal. If you take a shot to the femoral artery your chances of surviving aren't great. In fact, they're probably worse than taking a shot to the torso.

There was a video going around a few years ago where a policeman shot a robber in the thigh. The round hit his femoral artery and he was dead within five minutes.

replies(1): >>21127733 #
31. geggam ◴[] No.21126695{8}[source]
The shoot first attitude is what gets unarmed citizens and other cops killed in bar fights

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/us/bronx-officer-shot-dead/in...

32. dx87 ◴[] No.21126801{6}[source]
I live in the USA, and the only place I've ever seen warning shots being recommended was by the military in Iraq when civilian vehicles would drive too close to a convoy. If a gun is used, it's because you feel that your life or someone elses is in imminent danger. Warning shots can ricochet and kill someone, and bullets can still come down with lethal force if a warning shot is fired into the air. Shooting to maim is possible if the situation allows for it, but warning shots can end up killing someone besides the intended target.
replies(1): >>21130759 #
33. Faark ◴[] No.21127420{6}[source]
> 21 feet is often quoted as the minimum distance where a gun wins over a knife

Against an already drawn gun and a trained as well as attentive officer? Do you have a source for that? I have a hard time believing that. Or is this the case after factoring into the US mentality of "there may not ever be any residual risk for a cop"?

34. jacobush ◴[] No.21127733{5}[source]
It is kind of strange, but nevertheless, that's how it is. They are supposed to use the maim option with discretion. And it has caused death several times.

The police used to have smaller caliber pistols, and IIRC they put 14 rounds in someone leg, which didn't stop him from approaching the policemen doing the shooting. He still died though! This incident was one reason why they were later equipped with the more powerful SigSauer for more stopping power.

replies(1): >>21128383 #
35. MS90 ◴[] No.21128383{6}[source]
Jeez that's crazy. 14 rounds in a leg...how was that thing even still attached?

Do the police there have tasers? That could be a good tool for this type of thing.

replies(1): >>21129171 #
36. jacobush ◴[] No.21129171{7}[source]
Small caliber rounds. Tasers may come in the future. But back when that incident happened, tasers were not a thing.

Edit: I am torn on tasers. It’s a viable tool. I am just very pessimistic. I fully expect them to used VERY liberally in all sorts of situations where we got along very fine without them. It’s yet another way of dehumanising an encounter

replies(1): >>21129284 #
37. MS90 ◴[] No.21129284{8}[source]
Yeah, they do seem like they get used a lot here in the US. That said, I'd much rather be dehumanized with a taser than with a gun.
replies(1): >>21134402 #
38. pzo ◴[] No.21130759{7}[source]
I was skeptical in the beginning that "bullets can still come down with lethal force if a warning shot is fired into the air" but I guess you are correct. Mythbusters were testing this in one episode and [1]"Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured"

[1] https://mythresults.com/episode50

39. PhasmaFelis ◴[] No.21130944{3}[source]
> I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there.

That's what the protesters are expected to do.

Attacking the police was definitely a bad idea, especially for strategic reasons--this illustrates why Ghandi and King preached 100% passive resistance. Protesters can allow themselves to be brutalized for months, and the moment a few of them hit back, the narrative starts to shift to "violent thugs."

If you want to retain the moral high ground in the face of organized propaganda, you're not allowed to physically defend yourself even once.

40. doomleika ◴[] No.21131855[source]
At that scenario you might shoot right through someone's brain.

There's significant high chance to shoot through arteries at leg shots.

41. muzika ◴[] No.21133518{4}[source]
This is a case of self defense
42. jacobush ◴[] No.21134402{9}[source]
Of course!

It's just that I think you will be attacked with a taser instead of being asked to lie still on the ground until they can handcuff you. Suspect neutralized. Or tased in the cruiser for being unruly. Except they were just angry with you. And so on. Unless tasing comes with the kind of paperwork that comes with discharging a firearm, I think it will be misused a lot.

43. qbaqbaqba ◴[] No.21136384[source]
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kVZq_1569989463 They run to save one of their own being beaten to death with pipes and hammers.
44. jacobush ◴[] No.21136638{6}[source]
I don't understand this notion. The training is exactly to make people just respond with how they were trained, automatically. This is also how the military works. Since you just do it, you aren't as likely to ponder what will happen to the human in the cross hairs. These thoughts come afterwards.
replies(1): >>21146060 #
45. geggam ◴[] No.21146060{7}[source]
Never had a person in your cross hairs i take it ?