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1116 points whatok | 24 comments | | HN request time: 2.055s | source | bottom
1. groundlogic ◴[] No.20740667[source]
I don't think HN is immune to these kinds of CCP ops.
replies(3): >>20740740 #>>20740746 #>>20741510 #
2. vkou ◴[] No.20740740[source]
The problem is that calling someone a paid, or unpaid shill on HN is unproductive.

There's a world of difference (But little way for a third party to tell apart) between:

A paid shill.

An unpaid troll.

Someone who genuinely believes what they are posting, because they do not have the same information you do.

Someone who genuinely believes what they are posting, despite having the same information as you, because they prioritise different bits of that information differently. That is called a 'political opinion'.

For reference, I have been called a CCP shill at least once. I have never been to China, I have no affiliation with the CCP, I am not trolling, and I have not received a penny for posting nonsense here.

replies(3): >>20741237 #>>20741982 #>>20742182 #
3. kelnos ◴[] No.20740746[source]
I doubt HN is even on the CCP's radar. Not only are we a low-value target, we're much harder to subvert.
replies(7): >>20740861 #>>20740883 #>>20740958 #>>20740969 #>>20741132 #>>20741182 #>>20742040 #
4. whatshisface ◴[] No.20740861[source]
If HN's view of itself is even 1% accurate, then hundreds of current and future billionares hang out here. ;)
5. Chirael ◴[] No.20740883[source]
Probably true. But I notice, not infrequently, that stuff which is posted to HN ends up showing up on other news sites a day or two later. So I get the feeling some reporters/writers mine HN for content/ideas regularly which would make it more of an influencer and thus attractive. But still probably unlikely TBH.
6. guerrilla ◴[] No.20740958[source]
Propaganda casts a wide net. It isn't micromanaged.
7. groundlogic ◴[] No.20740969[source]
Right. This part of the work is left to the foreign-living chinese nationalistic diaspora. They get their directions from the CCP nonetheless.

Again, for casual readers: Chinese people in the US who don't support squashing democracy fighters in HK (I think/hope that's the vast majority of them - maybe more hope now that I'm being downvoted) are awesome.

replies(1): >>20741473 #
8. isostatic ◴[] No.20741132[source]
HN isn’t even blocked in China
replies(2): >>20741253 #>>20784410 #
9. munificent ◴[] No.20741182[source]
> we're much harder to subvert.

Surely, "I'm confident I'm not gullible" is the primary risk factor for actually being gullible.

replies(2): >>20741324 #>>20741409 #
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11. NicoJuicy ◴[] No.20741253{3}[source]
Sometimes it is, depends on the main articles
replies(2): >>20741292 #>>20741372 #
12. ◴[] No.20741292{4}[source]
13. klingonopera ◴[] No.20741324{3}[source]
...but it's actually because we are aware that we are gullible that makes a difference, not because we consider ourselves immune to it.

At least, that's how I see it...

14. jrockway ◴[] No.20741372{4}[source]
Many years ago, I flew HKG-PVG-NRT. When I was in the lounge at Shanghai I opened up my laptop to relax and peruse HN. I typed in the URL and ... nothing. "Stupid Linux WiFi, sigh," I thought to myself. After a bit more investigation, I realized that it was only HN that didn't work. "Oh yeah..." I realized.

Fortunately, HN was also blocked where I worked at the time, so I already had a proxy set up. That worked fine. How subversive of me!

15. tathougies ◴[] No.20741409{3}[source]
Well, a Chinese bot told him he's not gullible, so he has that going for him.
16. mythrwy ◴[] No.20741473{3}[source]
Devils advocate. Perhaps it's less they get directions and more they actually hold those views.

Which, we could say is because brainwashing since youth and perhaps there is some truth to that.

But I think likely the biggest thing is the same thing that motivates everyone else. Self interest. They want to see an expanded China with greater say in world events and greater share of the economic pie. Because it would benefit them. They see disruption or anything anti CCP as contrary to that goal.

replies(2): >>20741524 #>>20742250 #
17. sdinsn ◴[] No.20741510[source]
The mods here state that HN is immune. Anyone that calls out potential hostile information operations is threatened by the mods.
replies(1): >>20741528 #
18. ◴[] No.20741524{4}[source]
19. dang ◴[] No.20741528[source]
We've never said that. All we say (and have said for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9115965) is (a) that there needs to be evidence, and (b) that someone holding an opposing view is not evidence (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...).

The trouble is that most "calling out" that people do about this is easily seen to be bogus, even from just the public records of the commenters—unless you believe that Chinese (or, before that, Russian) moles were posting, say, GitHub projects in 2013 so they could get away with propaganda 6 years later. A lot of what we do as moderators is simply to sift carefully through the publicly available information. It's an indication of how lazy these accusations are that the users making them mostly don't bother to do that.

It's a cheap shot to fire off "you must be a shill-spy-astroturfer-bot-troll" in an internet argument. It degrades discussion, and the overwhelming majority of the time, there's no information in it beyond "I don't like what you say". The users who do this need to learn how unreliable this impulse to denounce others is, and restrain themselves from letting those neurons fire. Not only does it degrade the community in general, it often targets individuals in ugly and distressing ways, which none of us wants to see here. For an example, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403358.

What Twitter and Facebook are writing about in today's posts is something completely different. The fact that such manipulations exist does not give HN users license to cheaply smear each other. Both are wrong.

20. ◴[] No.20741982[source]
21. ryacko ◴[] No.20742040[source]
Imagine the workflow for the average PR department. Discover mentions of key terms and phrases, and when they occur, create an account and engage when future mentions are made.

Bureaucracies have no rational sense.

22. lucb1e ◴[] No.20742182[source]
The difference between a paid person and an unpaid person may not be so large. I heard from someone who looked into the anti-vax accounts on Facebook (in ~2013, when the comments on HN about this news would have been about preserving free speech on Twitter rather than good on them for doing this) that she found some people believed it so strongly that they wrote bots to respond to public messages that use certain keywords. These weren't government sockpuppets, they were concerned citizens.

I'm pretty sure this was the podcast where I heard that: https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/ (Relatively near the beginning of where the guest comes into the podcast, if I remember correctly.)

23. ◴[] No.20742250{4}[source]
24. shalmanese ◴[] No.20784410{3}[source]
It started being blocked a few weeks into the HK protests. I currently can't access it from my home ISP without VPN.